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Belle Vue V Kings Lynn Stars 21st May 2018

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Any suggestion that Garrity fell on purpose so that IRR could be used is ridiculous. If any team were intending to cheat in that way a rider wouldn't risk colliding with another rider during the charge to the first bend. Far easier and much less risky to slide off when at the back and claim back pain or whatever. 

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1 hour ago, PHILIPRISING said:

WITH all four GP qualifying rounds being held the same weekend, but only one on a Monday, anyone with any intelligence (pigs might fly) would have ensured that Belle Vue's two top riders weren't in the Abensberg meeting and could have been at the NSS fort the match against KL instead. And please don't tell me that it is an open draw...

If it was just left to chance the cards probably wouldn’t have fallen the way they did. It almost feels planned. 

The FIM didn’t have any contact with Belle Vue nor would you expect them to. Their only contact in the UK would have been with the BSPA. 

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3 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

HOW hard would that have been ... no other country races on a Monday.

Yep how hard would it be.Its this sort of thing( which with a bit of thought and planing could be avoided )that really Ps fans off.Not saying we would have defo won but we would have stood a better chance with Cook and Fricke there.These lost 3 points at the end of the season with this year being a close fought league could be the difference in making the play offs or not.My blood boils at the thought of it. All most fans want is to watch their own riders ride for their team win of loose then the result is down to your own team, and for there to be a level playing field for all and with a bit of forethought and planning this could happen far more often than it does.

Just give us our own team to watch and value for money is it really to much to ask.

PS just checked i see that none of the G P qualifiers were arranged on a Sunday to clash with the Polish leagues so a bit of forethought and planning did happen.Do the BSPA just sit back and do nothing rather than ask the FIM if they could look at who is and is not riding Monday and fit these riders in another round.

PPS Look i just did it mondays missing riders swap rounds for riders not riding for their own team that day Kurtz for Cook,J Holder for fricke,Sundstrom for Andersen and Wells for Howarth just using riders who ride in Britain no one missing for their own club let alone swaping anyone else who rode in any of the qualifiers as none of them rode on Monday

Edited by B.V 72
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19 minutes ago, B.V 72 said:

All most fans want is to watch their own riders ride for their team win of loose then the result is down to your own team, and for there to be a level playing field for all and with a bit of forethought and planning this could happen far more often than it does.

Oh Yes, that is what most fans want. Certainly me!

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It's the attitude of the BSPA which annoys me most.That fans will accept a team of 3 guests and still turn up.Yes I went on Monday as usual but I never thought I was watching a proper Belle Vue team.It could easily have been avoided.

 

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2 hours ago, colin wood said:

It's the attitude of the BSPA which annoys me most.That fans will accept a team of 3 guests and still turn up.Yes I went on Monday as usual but I never thought I was watching a proper Belle Vue team.It could easily have been avoided.

 

I didn't go on Monday,  as it wouldn't have mattered to me whether the 'Aces Select' won or lost...

Win = "Hollow victory as it wasnt really Belle Vue"...

Draw/Lose = "Not bothered as it wasnt really Belle Vue that drew/lost"...

The same would have been true if KL has turned up at the NSS with such a nonsense team...

Win = "Hollow victory as it wasnt really Kings Lynn"...

Draw/Lose = "Not bothered as it wasn't really Kings Lynn who drew with/beat us"..

And if the outcome of a match has absolutely no bearing on you as a fan of any sport, then you simply have no emotional attachment to it and your 'hard earned' stays firmly in your pocket..

And team sports 100% rely on this emotional attachment to prosper..

Or even maybe to just survive...

Some on here are now of the position that they are content to just watch ANY fourteen riders per meeting,  four riders per race etc etc and the racing is the most important thing rather than any actual meeting credibility and integrity...

To a large extent I can understand this, as many times over the past ten years or so, nothing more than random septets have been what we have had served up with great regularity, however I would suggest that this view will be shared by, in the main, the die hards who love their Speedway, (any Speedway)..

And sadly, they are becoming an ever decreasing number..

Let's be honest, when you attend an event for a National Championship in a professional sport, you shouldn't have to collude with those running that sport in pretending that it is a bona fide competition and has credibility and integrity...

And any sport using this as the fundamental basis of it's operating model and business plan could find it a 'modicum' difficult to be successful...

 

Edited by mikebv
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1 hour ago, colin wood said:

It's the attitude of the BSPA which annoys me most.That fans will accept a team of 3 guests and still turn up.Yes I went on Monday as usual but I never thought I was watching a proper Belle Vue team.It could easily have been avoided.

 

This is very true and the match going ahead as it did begs so many questions.

1. Why was this date to hold a rearranged fixture (postponed on 9 April) even considered if there was a possibility of riders missing?

2. Did the FIM consult the BSPA re: riders having fixtures already booked in the UK in order to avoid them taking part in the only Monday round of GP Qualifying?

3. If so, did the BSPA respond?

4. If the BSPA were consulted and didn't provide the inormation, why?

5. Was any attempt made by Belle Vue to ask King's Lynn for a postponement when it became known Cook & Fricke were missing?

6. If so, did King's Lynn refuse?

7. If Belle Vue didn't ask King's Lynn, why?

8. Did / will the BSPA make any representation to the FIM to avoid such scenarios in the future of having riders taken away on our fixed race nights?

9. If not, can we conclude that the BSPA really don't give a t*ss about the credibility of the sport in the UK, and what supporters have to put up with?

On the surface it just seems a little 'strange' that the match went ahead when it involved the BSPA chairman's team, and they were the team most likely to benefit.

All of the above is down to the administration, running and credibility of our beloved sport. What happened or might have happened out on track is another thing of course. As far as the actual match itself is concerned, as someone has said, there is no guarantee that the Aces would have won with a full team (inc R/R for Stevie Worrall) anyway. Brady Kurtz scored 9+1 from 4 rides, which is probably what Cookie would have scored. Jason Garrity (and eventually IRR) for Stevie scored 5+1. Yes, you can argue Stevie would have scored more, but remember the R/R rides for him in the 50-40 win v Swindon on TV only produced 2+1 !! Josh G scored 3, 3, 0, 0 = 6 and you could argue that Max Fricke might have scored more. Had Josh / Max scored 9 then Aces won have won 46-44. All the other incidents with Drozdz's engine probs, Jye breaking the tapes and Rohan not turning his fuel on at the start of heat 5 had nothing to do with the guests and would most likely have happened anyway. So there is a strong possibility that the Stars might have won v the regular Aces team. Fair play to them that they were definitely the better all-round team on the night. So had the Stars won against the 'real' Aces team, it would have been an even more creditable and 'real' result, and the debate about the rights and wrongs wouldn't be taking place.

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I was very impressed with the Kings Lynn side and as you say even with a full team we may have lost.But the match would have had more credibility.

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3 hours ago, colin wood said:

It's the attitude of the BSPA which annoys me most.That fans will accept a team of 3 guests and still turn up.Yes I went on Monday as usual but I never thought I was watching a proper Belle Vue team.It could easily have been avoided.

 

BUT there are lots of fans who won't accept a team with three guests ... especially their own team

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On 20/05/2018 at 12:59 PM, GregoryM said:

Spot on mikebv.

I made a comment in a post back in August 2015 that I thought the league table was a 'mysterious work of fiction'. When asked 'why?' I wrote this below, and still some other contributors didn't seem to accept the points I was making. Thankfully the Double Points Tac Ride has now gone, but I do think many speedway fans really can't see the wood for the trees.  

I will admit I'll still be there tomorrow night but only because it is at the NSS. I do enjoy it but I now treat each match as an individual night of entertainment, and all thoughts of it being a bona fide league competition were dispelled in my mind a long time ago. Had we still been at the Dog Track then I definitely wouldn't be there.

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Sorry, been away for a few days – but you ask why the league table is ‘a work of mysterious fiction’.

 

FICTION

1. GUESTS

In modern day speedway our teams are, for whatever reason, increasingly NOT racing against their opponents’ declared 1-7s, with guests being employed in numerous matches week-in, week-out. Infact, whenever there is a match without any guests and / or R/R it is noted as being somewhat remarkable.

 

Last night’s postponed match at Belle Vue, for example, was set to be the Aces 13th home Elite League match of the season. Had it gone ahead, the 13 matches would have seen the opponents arrive at Kirky Lane with 12 guests and 2 operating R/R.

 

In another example, in the four Belle Vue / Lakeside matches this season there were 12 guests used and 2 R/Rs!!

 

What makes the situation look even sillier with guests is that you might see a particular rider at your track guesting for an opponent, but is then absent when his own team visits. Or your own team has a rider missing at an away track, but then he appears at that track guesting for someone else.

 

The choice of guests is, quite understandably, made on a ‘horse-for-courses’ basis wherever possible and a team may well have a guest rider in its line-up at a particular track where he performs considerably better than the rider he’s replaced.

 

So if the ‘real’ Team A isn’t taking on the ‘real’ Team B the result can hardly be ‘real’ and so have little credibility. The result is likely to bear no resemblance when teams are full of guests to what it would have been with their own riders - so the result becomes a work of fiction of sorts.

 

2. DOUBLE POINTS TACTICAL RIDE RULE

Yes here we are again - but if a team ‘wins’ 47-46 by virtue of using this rule then in reality out on the track they’ve actually lost 44-46. What is worse is that if their opponents are the home team, they’re considered to have ‘lost’ and get no match points at all - despite scoring a real match winning total of 46 points out on the track. Absolutely ridiculous!!!! And yet more fiction.

 

MYSTERIOUS

The mystery is how supporters continue to have the patience to put up with it? It certainly isn’t doing any favours in attracting new supporters. Over the years I’ve taken several ‘first-timers’ to speedway and, for the most part, they’ve enjoyed the spectacle. Get onto explaining the rules and answering their questions about team line-ups and they soon lose interest. I took a couple to a double header at Belle Vue last season (I think it was last season) and two riders were riding as guests for one team in the first match and then for their own team in the second – the couple were very confused to say the least and just laughed in my face when I explained things to them. ‘How on earth can you take speedway seriously’ they asked. I really didn’t have an answer.

 

Anyhow, I’ll continue to enjoy speedway match by match and try to put out of my mind just how a team has been cobbled together for that particular night.

 

It's not something to agree or disagree on, it's not opinion. The current guest / double points tactical ride systems make the league table a 'mysterious work of fiction'. No if's or buts about it.

 

Did u tell your friends how little money speedway in the UK has to chuck about, how we are competing for the services of riders with the other nations, other comps etc, how we try to keep our team strengths matched, how expensive the bikes are, how our stadiums are not speedway only stadiums etc etc

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1 hour ago, PHILIPRISING said:

BUT there are lots of fans who won't accept a team with three guests ... especially their own team

Can you find out whether the BSPA have any say over which rider races in which qualifier and whether the FIM considers league meetings when scheduling their meetings please? 

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14 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

BUT there are lots of fans who won't accept a team with three guests ... especially their own team

Yes. And why should they. I definitely don't.

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15 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

BUT there are lots of fans who won't accept a team with three guests ... especially their own team

I think those lads four words are very pertinent...

In the BV Select v KL match it was unusual for the HOME team to run a fixture with missing riders. .

Usually it's the AWAY team who will turn up with a 'select' team...

I can only presume the away teams agree to the fixture, knowing they have riders missing, because it won't actually effect their business directly through the turnstiles that evening....

As well as, depending on the technical nature of the track, allow them to hire some ringers for the night. Which ironically may get them a victory which could actually encourage an improved crowd number attends their next home meeting!...

(And maybe if a No1 is missing for them it may actually save them money too!?)...

Maybe I am being too cynical and none of the above is correct and it is just an oversight, incompetence or simply a 'fait accompli' that sees so many meetings ran with guest riders...

Not a great way collectively to run a business that relies on crowd numbers to be successful though is it?

Edited by mikebv
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