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The continuing decline of Speedway

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29 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

Maybe we should have the season based on Knock-Out Cup matches. That way, everytime a club and more importantly its fans taste defeat, the season is over anyway. 

Absolutely. Every match means something.

Sad that we have ended up like this....

Steve

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10 hours ago, steve roberts said:

I don't think anybody really doubts that the Play-Offs apparently attract good numbers but those numbers need to be replicated during the season if speedway is to move on.

They attract reasonable numbers but I would suggest 'net' over a season they just about break even...

As teams cram in fixtures, particularly if your team is guaranteed a PO place, you tend to find 300 - 500 give a few meetings a miss due to nothing riding on them, and the cost of lots of meetings within two or three weeks of each other...

Then you ride a PO in front of an extra 1000 and think the Play Offs are "a winner"...

The added irony is that when teams eventually get a big crowd, that delivers a great atmosphere with something riding on it, they then invariably have no meeting for the next six months until the new season starts..!

Speedway's Operating and Business Model....:D:angry:

Edited by mikebv
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5 hours ago, moxey63 said:
5 hours ago, moxey63 said:

Just a falseness about it. There shouldn't be 80-odd per cent of clubs still involved with weeks of the season to go. That's a school sports day ploy where even the losers get medals. In any sport there has to be a taste of failure. Otherwise, you can't enjoy winning.

 

Correct the last thing we need is  teams still in with a chance of winning  something so it keeps the fans coming in ..let them have no chance and end the  season in  june so they  can go bust ...I think your post some up's the standard old fan who has zero understanding of the money side .we have already had one say lets take off 50% off teams gate money as a way forward ..not sure it can get worst than that 

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1 hour ago, orion said:

Correct the last thing we need is  teams still in with a chance of winning  something so it keeps the fans coming in ..let them have no chance and end the  season in  june so they  can go bust ...I think your post some up's the standard old fan who has zero understanding of the money side .we have already had one say lets take off 50% off teams gate money as a way forward ..not sure it can get worst than that 

Seeing as you are really aware of the money side of things, why now in the years of Play-Off speedway is the sport in the most worrying state it's ever been? There is something keeping the fans away. One forum poster mentioned taking 50% off entrance money, which is not going to happen, but speedway must have suffered a similar reduction in crowd numbers the last 25 years, all in the time PO speedway has mostly been in force. We have had live speedway since 1999, POs since 2002, and yet look at the state of the sport. I am still uncertain that PO speedway is better for a speedway season. It keeps up interest, but at the same time it's sort of begging to the few fans that are still left that their collective attention spans won't be questioned. You keep having a dig at old fans. So, come on Mr Marketing Man, where are the Play-Offs winning the new fans? As the old fans become disillusioned and no longer attend and drift away with each month, there's enough space on the terraces for everyone. If you like the X-Factor type of gimmick shows, the Play-Offs are your bag. Just not for me. And, by the way, Rye House went bust only weeks ago.. and there's more to come.

Edited by moxey63
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7 hours ago, moxey63 said:

I am certainly not saying speedway racing was better in the seventies. At the time, it was certainly more interesting and grabbed the attention more than what's on offer today. Was it the bikes were harder to race, the tracks more grippy and rutty, therefore there was a sense of riders making mistakes and other capitalising on them. I certainly recall riders coming back after a heat and being unable to speak, it was that hard out there.  Now, it seems so easy compared to back then. A few videos on Youtube don't tell the whole story. There were lots of characters and, unlike modern day, few hoping to make a name for themselves from with all the glam stuff a heatleader back in the day would have had to dance for.  I used to go to watch Belle Vue v Halifax in the early eighties for one reason - Kenny Carter. The Dukes were dross all the time, but seeing your top men against him and what could happen was worth entrance money. You'd certainly not wish to miss it.

As a young boy, it was the noise of the crowd and the smell of the methanol that grabbed my attention in that era. I can’t comment on the speedway per se because I was too young, although, I do remember the names and used to love reading the Star and The Mail. I do remember one match v The Dukes, which had Geoff Pusey and Henny Kroeze in their 7 and were routed 60-18! 

I have evidenced YouTube to remind me of a bygone era and to see for myself if really it was better times. Support wise it most certainly is, however, I have watched several meetings on this platform including several World Finals and Test Matches. There were many big names of the day but the meetings were broadly similar to today. Incidentally, the track at Swindon hasn’t got any better if the England’s USA match from the mid 80’s is anything to go by.

My comment was not aimed at you but it’s an ideal shared by many supporters from that era that it was better speedway but I think that’s just the memories of those individuals, which is why I believe that meetings are not much different today to those from the 70’s, albeit on much faster bikes. 

To me, the speedway is no better or no worse than it was 40 years ago, so to me it’s not the product itself, however, it’s all the ancillary issues that speedway has failed to understand and adddress.

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51 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

Seeing as you are really aware of the money side of things, why now in the years of Play-Off speedway is the sport in the most worrying state it's ever been? There is something keeping the fans away. One forum poster mentioned taking 50% off entrance money, which is not going to happen, but speedway must have suffered a similar reduction in crowd numbers the last 25 years, all in the time PO speedway has mostly been in force. We have had live speedway since 1999, POs since 2002, and yet look at the state of the sport. I am still uncertain that PO speedway is better for a speedway season. It keeps up interest, but at the same time it's sort of begging to the few fans that are still left that their collective attention spans won't be questioned. You keep having a dig at old fans. So, come on Mr Marketing Man, where are the Play-Offs winning the new fans? As the old fans become disillusioned and no longer attend and drift away with each month, there's enough space on the terraces for everyone. If you like the X-Factor type of gimmick shows, the Play-Offs are your bag. Just not for me. And, by the way, Rye House went bust only weeks ago.. and there's more to come.

Yet again the stupid idea of blaming play offs just because crowds have dropped ...they work in every other sport but somehow uk  speedway is the only sport in the world that it stops fans going . if play offs stopped people going it's stands to reason that in every sport that they are used , the the  crowds would be going down as well ..the fact that they don't should give you  a clue on how the public view the  play offs as a whole  as well as  the reason why nearly every sports have  them in one way or another ..no doubt they are wrong and the oap speedway  fan is right ?

No one ever said that play offs will improved crowds and  I doubt if  anything will, but it's pretty clear if we don't have  them the crowds would have  dropped more quicker with hardly anything to race for nearly all the clubs once june comes ..if was a marketking man I doubt  I would love the task of trying to market matches that meant nothing to anyone ,if we  went back to a 8 club league with only one winner ….''Roll up ,Roll up it's 4th v 5th for the vital 4th place that means nothing '',

 

Edited by orion

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2 hours ago, orion said:

Yet again the stupid idea of blaming play offs just because crowds have dropped ...they work in every other sport but somehow uk  speedway is the only sport in the world that it stops fans going . if play offs stopped people going it's stands to reason that in every sport that they are used , the the  crowds would be going down as well ..the fact that they don't should give you  a clue on how the public view the  play offs as a whole  as well as  the reason why nearly every sports have  them in one way or another ..no doubt they are wrong and the oap speedway  fan is right ?

No one ever said that play offs will improved crowds and  I doubt if  anything will, but it's pretty clear if we don't have  them the crowds would have  dropped more quicker with hardly anything to race for nearly all the clubs once june comes ..if was a marketking man I doubt  I would love the task of trying to market matches that meant nothing to anyone ,if we  went back to a 8 club league with only one winner ….''Roll up ,Roll up it's 4th v 5th for the vital 4th place that means nothing '',

 

Speedway isn't typical of normal sports. The group matches serve the purpose of practice for majority of teams to fine tune their sides and drop off form riders and bring in stronger ones. Poole did this. It makes a mockery of a sport set up to build a bond between riders and fans when a side can look totally different within weeks of the new season. It is short term thinking. Do other sports see teams gradually kick out the weaker members so they can bring in stronger players before the big occasion of the Play off? The team ethnicity has vanished. That was what attracted fans to watch. Riders appear for so many teams now that it's hard to keep up. It's not about building sides for the future anymore. Six months of the league season is speedway's future. Then we all start again. As you keep harping on about 4th V 5th, what do you think is the impact on teams who have no chance of making the POs in 7th and 8th? Will there fans stop attending and they'll close because they are meaningless matches? Or will the follow my oap way of thinking and just enjoy the sport the way we used to, when it was more about hope than it was winning?

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10 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

Speedway isn't typical of normal sports. The group matches serve the purpose of practice for majority of teams to fine tune their sides and drop off form riders and bring in stronger ones. Poole did this. It makes a mockery of a sport set up to build a bond between riders and fans when a side can look totally different within weeks of the new season. It is short term thinking. Do other sports see teams gradually kick out the weaker members so they can bring in stronger players before the big occasion of the Play off? The team ethnicity has vanished. That was what attracted fans to watch. Riders appear for so many teams now that it's hard to keep up. It's not about building sides for the future anymore. Six months of the league season is speedway's future. Then we all start again. As you keep harping on about 4th V 5th, what do you think is the impact on teams who have no chance of making the POs in 7th and 8th? Will there fans stop attending and they'll close because they are meaningless matches? Or will the follow my oap way of thinking and just enjoy the sport the way we used to, when it was more about hope than it was winning?

The answer to your last  question is yea any match that means little will not have as many fans .. that is just common sense ..no doubt in the great era of speedway no one ever dropped aves to make there team stronger did they ? it happened all the time so teams could win the league next year or a cup in the same year is always been the same in speedway but no doubt you felt that  was ok . Riders used to take money to drop points for god sake .the sports has always been bent .

Not sure but did not have the league cup first in the old days ? I might be wrong but could not just drop  ave to bring better riders  in then   so you could go on and win the league ? ...I guess with that in mind you stopped going ?  Yet again no ever said the play offs are fair or the best way of finding  the best team t but hey are a vital point in making teams more money something you cant understand . ive been to Swindon this year and they have made one team  change this  and that was down to a rider getting injured .the other night they rode Belle Vue who I think had the same top 5 they stated the season with . In fact Swindon and Belle vue  sides have most of the same side from last year and wolves have  had 3 or 4 as well . so all this every team changes  a couple of weeks into the season   and there is no bond between rider and fans   is over stated . I expect Swindon Belle vue and wolves made more changes 30 years ago 

You go on about Poole this year but  they likely to finish top so ever under the old rules they would have dropped riders and still  won the league .

 

 

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17 hours ago, Pinny said:

Wish youd stop banging on about the IOW - their crowds are still low which hits the nail on the head that the sport is on its arse .

A whole lot more needs doing than what the IOW are doing . 

You clearly haven't been to Isle of Wight speedway and consequently have no idea what is going on down there or even what their gates are. 

Under the previous promotion, gates had dwindled to numbers, on occasion, under three figures. Word is they were losing around £30,000 per year. 

Under the current management, average attendances have increased 4 fold and with one exception they went up in every comparative meeting in the second year from the first. According to Barry Bishop, they broke even last season.

Moreover, and probably more importantly, they have attracted universal credit and praise from fans across the country including some of speedways longest standing, most travelled and highest respected supporters. There simply isn't any criticism to be found anywhere.

Of relevance is that the above is with a team that finished at or near the bottom of the NL. 

Where speedway is concerned that record is not just remarkable, its unique and, as such, is very much worth 'banging on about'.

Speedway probably does need more than what Isle of Wight offer. But with their level of progress, it must surely be worth looking at precisely how they have achieved it. 

16 hours ago, Midland Red said:

There's the difference - it used to be that they were speedway meetings, an evening's entertainment, never was there a meeting that "didn't matter"   

For me, I would agree that all meetings matter. But what is more likely to pull in paying spectators, a dead end of a season rubber which is run simply to finish fixtures, or one on which the possibility of winning the league rests ? 

Edited by Halifaxtiger
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13 hours ago, mikebv said:

They attract reasonable numbers but I would suggest 'net' over a season they just about break even...

As teams cram in fixtures, particularly if your team is guaranteed a PO place, you tend to find 300 - 500 give a few meetings a miss due to nothing riding on them, and the cost of lots of meetings within two or three weeks of each other...

Then you ride a PO in front of an extra 1000 and think the Play Offs are "a winner"...

The added irony is that when teams eventually get a big crowd, that delivers a great atmosphere with something riding on it, they then invariably have no meeting for the next six months until the new season starts..!

Speedway's Operating and Business Model....:D:angry:

I don't think that's true.

Do you really think that Mildenhall's gates are likely to show a significant drop in the next few weeks ? As far as I can make out, their play off status is pretty much guaranteed. 

Of the clubs in the Premiership, only Leicester are out of it. The other 6 all have a chance of success or failure, so interest is retained. In the Championship, about 8 teams are in with a shout in the same way. 

On the other hand, gates at teams who are now just riding to complete meetings are likely to show decreased attendances. Under a first past the post system, the number of clubs in that situation increases significantly - when Glasgow won the PL a few years ago, there were over 40 matches that were effectively dead rubbers with nothing to play for.

Belle Vue's play off final against Wolverhampton doubled the years average attendance. If they get there this season, it will treble it. That is likely to be replicated in the Championship  and NL and speedway simply isn't in a position to turn that down. 

Edited by Halifaxtiger

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11 hours ago, moxey63 said:

Seeing as you are really aware of the money side of things, why now in the years of Play-Off speedway is the sport in the most worrying state it's ever been? There is something keeping the fans away. One forum poster mentioned taking 50% off entrance money, which is not going to happen, but speedway must have suffered a similar reduction in crowd numbers the last 25 years, all in the time PO speedway has mostly been in force. We have had live speedway since 1999, POs since 2002, and yet look at the state of the sport. I am still uncertain that PO speedway is better for a speedway season. It keeps up interest, but at the same time it's sort of begging to the few fans that are still left that their collective attention spans won't be questioned. You keep having a dig at old fans. So, come on Mr Marketing Man, where are the Play-Offs winning the new fans? As the old fans become disillusioned and no longer attend and drift away with each month, there's enough space on the terraces for everyone. If you like the X-Factor type of gimmick shows, the Play-Offs are your bag. Just not for me. And, by the way, Rye House went bust only weeks ago.. and there's more to come.

If play offs are a 'gimmick' its one that both rugby codes now use as their method of deciding title winners and even access to English football's highest division is partly decided by it. 

Clearly, speedway isn't alone in believing that this is the method that is most beneficial to the sport as a whole.

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8 hours ago, orion said:

The answer to your last  question is yea any match that means little will not have as many fans .. that is just common sense ..no doubt in the great era of speedway no one ever dropped aves to make there team stronger did they ? it happened all the time so teams could win the league next year or a cup in the same year is always been the same in speedway but no doubt you felt that  was ok . Riders used to take money to drop points for god sake .the sports has always been bent .

Not sure but did not have the league cup first in the old days ? I might be wrong but could not just drop  ave to bring better riders  in then   so you could go on and win the league ? ...I guess with that in mind you stopped going ?  Yet again no ever said the play offs are fair or the best way of finding  the best team t but hey are a vital point in making teams more money something you cant understand . ive been to Swindon this year and they have made one team  change this  and that was down to a rider getting injured .the other night they rode Belle Vue who I think had the same top 5 they stated the season with . In fact Swindon and Belle vue  sides have most of the same side from last year and wolves have  had 3 or 4 as well . so all this every team changes  a couple of weeks into the season   and there is no bond between rider and fans   is over stated . I expect Swindon Belle vue and wolves made more changes 30 years ago 

You go on about Poole this year but  they likely to finish top so ever under the old rules they would have dropped riders and still  won the league .

 

 

I think you have just hit the nail on the head. My views about Play-Offs have been positioned by following speedway for 40-odd years. I was always aware of riders dropping points and teams manipulating their averages. I guess I see the Play-Offs as the final straw for my belief in the sport. I just think manipulating of averages is rife as the need for every team to be successful or make the belief you'll be successful last as long as possible. I accepted the cheating when I was a fan up until the mid-2000s, but I suppose when you take all the modern stuff of riders not being at all loyal and go off with anyone who offers them a paycheque, I suppose it has just mushroomed my personal stance. Perhaps that's why the missing fans became what they are.

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Many older people go off standing on the terraces, they have aches and pains, they want to go to bed early, they can't afford to go, speedway doesn't do it for them anymore, they just won't admit to it :@. They give excuse after excuse, moan and groan, when all of the time they want to sit in their chair with a cuppa and watch Eastenders or Shed n Buried, NOT go to speedway! 

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17 minutes ago, Trees said:

Many older people go off standing on the terraces, they have aches and pains, they want to go to bed early, they can't afford to go, speedway doesn't do it for them anymore, they just won't admit to it :@. They give excuse after excuse, moan and groan, when all of the time they want to sit in their chair with a cuppa and watch Eastenders or Shed n Buried, NOT go to speedway! 

Whilst many others have found other things to do after getting peed off with what happened in/to the sport and now go bowling, pass the light summer evenings in their gardens or allotments, play walking football, do any amount of things they found happen whilst they've been attending speedway meetings all around the world in the past.

Not all older people who quit watching speedway are ready to sit and vegetate at home!

Edited by Barney Rabbit
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4 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said:

I don't think that's true.

Do you really think that Mildenhall's gates are likely to show a significant drop in the next few weeks ? As far as I can make out, their play off status is pretty much guaranteed. 

Of the clubs in the Premiership, only Leicester are out of it. The other 6 all have a chance of success or failure, so interest is retained. In the Championship, about 8 teams are in with a shout in the same way. 

On the other hand, gates at teams who are now just riding to complete meetings are likely to show decreased attendances. Under a first past the post system, the number of clubs in that situation increases significantly - when Glasgow won the PL a few years ago, there were over 40 matches that were effectively dead rubbers with nothing to play for.

Belle Vue's play off final against Wolverhampton doubled the years average attendance. If they get there this season, it will treble it. That is likely to be replicated in the Championship  and NL and speedway simply isn't in a position to turn that down. 

The year before when the Aces were top virtually all season, they had to cram in (I think), 6 matches in just over two weeks...

Some of those crowds were the lowest gates of the year, with several of them massively down on the regular crowd that year....

Getting 2000 and 3200 for the two play offs didn't cover the loss of revenue of those meetings I would suggest, or at best it broke even...

If no play offs had existed then I would say that all six meetings would have run in front of healthy crowds as 'The Title' was up for grabs and every meeting meant something towards the ultimate prize..

(With the night the Champions getting the Trophy being the biggest crowd of the Season by far!)

There are clear Pros and Cons to the play offs, but poor fixture planning certainly does the Sport zero favours, as instead of the Season reaching a much anticipated crescendo, it decends into farce with riders missing left, right and centre as clubs share them in Guestfests, to fit in lots of meetings before cut off time...

Sadly that nonsense doesn't help bring any great kudos to winning any League, Play offs or not....

And, for me, that has a far higher negative impact to crowds than the system used to produce the 'Champions'...

Edited by mikebv
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