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The continuing decline of Speedway

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4 hours ago, GWC said:

The majority of people I know who watch speedway on tv and never attend say they watch it purely for the spectacle and sadly have no interest in teams or their riders.

Magnify that across the country and team speedway doesn’t have the draw it once had.

Same here, mostly to cheer on Woffinden in the GPs.  His image / look  helps as they are bikers, but they enjoyed GB in the SON (The Woffy & Lambert Show).....

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On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 12:16 AM, mikebv said:

"Belle Vue have made hardly any changes this year"......

They have had around 20 Guests..!!:D

I take it you must be using the same 'logic'' that Trigger used in Only Fools and Horses, when he proudly told everyone that in his job he had used exactly the same road sweeping broom for the past 20 years....

And then told all present that in that time it had had just 17 new heads and 14 new handles...:D

"Awright Dave?"....:D

First of all as I on about riders being replaced form the starting 7  due to poor form, not how many guests were used during a season . but as we are on the subject could you list me these 20 guests that Belle Vue  used this year and in what meetings ...after putting the above up you must pretty sure that you are correct ..otherwise it would be a bit like turning up as Batman and Robin at a wake ..looking forward  hearing from  you  Del Boy ..should be a great read 

Edited by orion

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3 hours ago, orion said:

First of all as I on about riders being replaced form the starting 7  due to poor form, not how many guests were used during a season . but as we are on the subject could you list me these 20 guests that Belle Vue  used this year and in what meetings ...after putting the above up you must pretty sure that you are correct ..otherwise it would be a bit like turning up as Batman and Robin at a wake ..looking forward  hearing from  you  Del Boy ..should be a great read 

:D

Apologies Trigg, I stand corrected.....

Only SIXTEEN Guests used...

(Perfectly acceptable)...

;)

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14 hours ago, mikebv said:

:D

Apologies Trigg, I stand corrected.....

Only SIXTEEN Guests used...

(Perfectly acceptable)…

;)

16 you sure ?  I do wonder if it  was 16 how that compares to golden era when people said there was less guests ...I have a feeling 16 in speedway terms is not very many over a season and  I also suspect that Swindon went ever lower than Belle Vue .this season 

So as I  said not that many and perfectly acceptable for speedway in terms of  what has gone before .

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48 minutes ago, orion said:

16 you sure ?  I do wonder if it  was 16 how that compares to golden era when people said there was less guests ...I have a feeling 16 in speedway terms is not very many over a season and  I also suspect that Swindon went ever lower than Belle Vue .this season 

So as I  said not that many and perfectly acceptable for speedway in terms of  what has gone before .

:D:D:D

Priceless...

Sometimes British Speedway fans do actually get the Sport they deserve...

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Right I went to Ipswich tonight my interest was to see Drew Kemp make his home debut this being my first visit of 2018. 

The presentation was OK the racing was enjoyable and the match was kept alive by a mini Ipswich fight back. 

The promotions do need to find away of putting more meat on the bone for the money paid at the turnstiles above and beyond 15 heats. There needs to be more crowd interaction this requires having the right presenting team and the willingness of the riders and management to partake. 

I still maintain my points on guesting and doubling up. Those 6 Ipswich riders are only hired hands you can tell that the bind between riders and crowd is not what it was.

Its very difficult to build up rivalry between teams when tomorrow night the visitors number one is in your team and next week he riders for you at home.

I came away not bothered by a home loss in the old days i would have been really pi##ed off by a loss at home just because I went to see speedway heats and not a team event. 

But I saw enough to believe that something is still there to rescue. 

Will I return? Yes I will maybe not until next season who knows but when I fancy a night at speedway. 

what I really want is a professionally run sport with a team or riders who only rise for your team so I can get the buzz of following my team again once that's back then yes I would be there every week. 

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3 hours ago, Spl77 said:

Right I went to Ipswich tonight my interest was to see Drew Kemp make his home debut this being my first visit of 2018. 

The presentation was OK the racing was enjoyable and the match was kept alive by a mini Ipswich fight back. 

The promotions do need to find away of putting more meat on the bone for the money paid at the turnstiles above and beyond 15 heats. There needs to be more crowd interaction this requires having the right presenting team and the willingness of the riders and management to partake. 

I still maintain my points on guesting and doubling up. Those 6 Ipswich riders are only hired hands you can tell that the bind between riders and crowd is not what it was.

Its very difficult to build up rivalry between teams when tomorrow night the visitors number one is in your team and next week he riders for you at home.

I came away not bothered by a home loss in the old days i would have been really pi##ed off by a loss at home just because I went to see speedway heats and not a team event. 

But I saw enough to believe that something is still there to rescue. 

Will I return? Yes I will maybe not until next season who knows but when I fancy a night at speedway. 

what I really want is a professionally run sport with a team or riders who only rise for your team so I can get the buzz of following my team again once that's back then yes I would be there every week. 

The actual spectacle of the Sport is, for me, as good/bad/similar (delete as applicable), as it ever has been...

It's just that (in this country), they find it all most impossible to fit it into a bona fide, credible team concept...

The actual raw product of  Red, Blue, White and Yellow going around a Speedway track four times is still good to watch...

They just need a way to harness that raw product and utilise it to engage a crowd level to visit, that the product and spectacle deserves...

Pretty simple equation is, if they can find an operating model that engages better crowds, it will prosper..

If they cannot, it won't...

Edited by mikebv

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I never have an issue with guests replacing injured riders as I cannot think of an affordable alternative save for R/R. 

 

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On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 6:37 PM, moxey63 said:

All true. Your post really resolves why the sport is where it is now? I think each story offers more than enough reasons why crowds have plummeted. 

It all sounds quirky for a time, but forty years is a long time ago and I guess people just want a genuine sport with genuine rules in 2018. We should learn from the fascinating facts you've provided and ban such things ever occurring again. It is not ok to say daft things happened 40 years ago... and so it's ok they happen now. It really shows we have learned nothing from past mistakes and will still accept anything.

The modern age will not accept such shoddiness for the cash they're handing over to watch what would enable you a more professional show elsewhere in the sporting world. 

Bewley, Cook and Worrall, in my ideal world, would have to choose what league to race in and not have the best of both world's. Something that has to be done to save speedway and reignite it as a sport that once lay at death's door. 

I have said before that guests are  a necessary evil and I'd maintain that now. There's no question in my mind that if Somerset turned up at Belle Vue without Jason Doyle but had Niels Kristian Iverson as a replacement the attendance might not be affected much. If they turned up with Alfie Bowtell (no disrespect to the lad) it might, and we have seen comments reflecting that many times. Meetings would become less competitive and the sport held to ransom by injury far more than it is now and that's why we have had guests for over half a century.

It might be an alien concept to newcomers, but then as has been said many times you simply cannot judge one sport by another. To do so is not just ridiculous, its bizarre. 

Problem is we don't live in an ideal world (be that yours, mine or anyone else's). Doubling up has got out of hand, but I only have an issue with that because of the loss of riders fixture clashes create and the necessity to then have facilities all the time. Fixed race nights has been a disaster for attendances, but there's no question that the farcical number of guests and rider replacement used in 2017 has changed somewhat. 

On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 6:43 PM, shippy22 said:

Doubling up was only on a small scale, and usually the riders concerned, belonged to the top division club, and were loaned out to the second division team.   Nowadays the Premier League teams are more or less a "Championship Select" team, plus 1 or 2 full time Premier riders.

 

That's true to a point. Referring to Belle Vue in 1980, Maxfield, Carr, Richardson & Wilcock all rode in about half of Belle Vue's fixtures. 

I actually don't think that speedway fans at Premiership level would have a problem with their riders competing with other clubs if it where not for the fact that there were clashes. I have never heard a Belle Vue fan, for example, complain that Dan Bewley rides for Workington (or a Workington fan complain that he rides for Belle Vue).

In addition, the problems with absences this season seems to me to be at least as much with them riding abroad. 

On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 7:38 PM, Spl77 said:

So you're telling me I don't know why myself and my group of friends no longer go? Unbelievable another head stuck in the sand its always been that way chap! 

Not at all. I am simply saying that we have always had - more or less - the situation you described, so I do not understand why that would affect attendance now.

If I am honest, I also do not understand why a doubling up (or loaned) rider could not be seen as a member of your team - I have certainly never heard anyone say that before, much less use it as a reason for giving up on speedway. 

The suggestion that Mildenhall fans will walk away in their hundreds because Drew Kemp is now riding for Ipswich or that Ipswich fans will object violently to his presence in their team because he rides for Mildenhall is nonsense. 

Edited by Halifaxtiger
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19 hours ago, ouch said:

I never have an issue with guests replacing injured riders as I cannot think of an affordable alternative save for R/R. 

 

Nutshell :approve:

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41 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

I have said before that guests are  a necessary evil and I'd maintain that now. There's no question in my mind that if Somerset turned up at Belle Vue without Jason Doyle but had Niels Kristian Iverson as a replacement the attendance might not be affected much. If they turned up with Alfie Bowtell (no disrespect to the lad) it might, and we have seen comments reflecting that many times. Meetings would become less competitive and the sport held to ransom by injury far more than it is now and that's why we have had guests for over half a century.

It might be an alien concept to newcomers, but then as has been said many times you simply cannot judge one sport by another. To do so is not just ridiculous, its bizarre. 

Problem is we don't live in an ideal world (be that yours, mine or anyone else's). Doubling up has got out of hand, but I only have an issue with that because of the loss of riders fixture clashes create and the necessity to then have facilities all the time. Fixed race nights has been a disaster for attendances, but there's no question that the farcical number of guests and rider replacement used in 2017 has changed somewhat. 

That's true to a point. Referring to Belle Vue in 1980, Maxfield, Carr, Richardson & Wilcock all rode in about half of Belle Vue's fixtures. 

I actually don't think that speedway fans at Premiership level would have a problem with their riders competing with other clubs if it where not for the fact that there were clashes. I have never heard a Belle Vue fan, for example, complain that Dan Bewley rides for Workington (or a Workington fan complain that he rides for Belle Vue).

In addition, the problems with absences this season seems to me to be at least as much with them riding abroad. 

Not at all. I am simply saying that we have always had - more or less - the situation you described, so I do not understand why that would affect attendance now.

If I am honest, I also do not understand why a doubling up (or loaned) rider could not be seen as a member of your team - I have certainly never heard anyone say that before, much less use it as a reason for giving up on speedway. 

The suggestion that Mildenhall fans will walk away in their hundreds because Drew Kemp is now riding for Ipswich or that Ipswich fans will object violently to his presence in their team because he rides for Mildenhall is nonsense. 

During the days when Promoters had teams in both leagues (Oxford/White City/Peterborough/Eastbourne, Hackney/Rye House, King's Lynn/Boston etc etc) there was always a system whereby riders tended to double up. Oxford enjoyed the opportunities of blooding the likes of Malcolm Ballard, Gordon Kennett, John Davis etc whilst still appearing for their Division Two/National League clubs. It allowed a natural progression from one league to another and I believe the system generally operated well. Not sure, personally,  how the modern system of doubling up operates, however, as there are those better placed than myself to make a comparison.

Edited by steve roberts

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It used to be an opportunity for up-and-coming riders to ride at a higher level, to progress their experience

Now it's used purely to add to riders' income - there can be no case for a top level rider (purely as an example, Chris Harris) to double down to the second tier

I have no problem with an up-and-coming Brit in the second tier being given opportunities in the top tier - but not on a permanent (season-long) basis

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13 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

During the days when Promoters had teams in both leagues (Oxford/White City/Peterborough/Eastbourne, Hackney/Rye House, King's Lynn/Boston etc etc) there was always a system whereby riders tended to double up. Oxford enjoyed the opportunities of blooding the likes of Malcolm Ballard, Gordon Kennett, John Davis etc whilst still appearing for their Division Two/National League clubs. It allowed a natural progression from one league to another and I believe the system generally operated well. Not sure, personally,  how the modern system of doubling up operates, however, as there are those better placed than myself to make a comparison.

The modern system was initiated to replicate the era you refer to and encourage up and coming riders to chance their arm and development in the top league. There was a huge gulf in skill between the middle and top tiers where 10 point riders from the middle tier were struggling to get ones and twos in the top league. Initially those riders had to choose between one league or the other and were given a two season comfort by allowing them to return to the middle tier on their last middle tier average if the top tier didn't work out. The middle tier became more attractive with more meetings and by comparison easier races not withstanding that a few daft rsed Promoters started paying silly money to tempt them back. With insufficient riders doubling up with converted averages came in and eventually doubling down followed.

What was a development initiative became a bidding scramble so like many other best intended initiatives it was abused by; average manipulation, cheque book speedway, self interest and sheer avarice.

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1 hour ago, Halifaxtiger said:

I have said before that guests are  a necessary evil and I'd maintain that now. There's no question in my mind that if Somerset turned up at Belle Vue without Jason Doyle but had Niels Kristian Iverson as a replacement the attendance might not be affected much. If they turned up with Alfie Bowtell (no disrespect to the lad) it might, and we have seen comments reflecting that many times. Meetings would become less competitive and the sport held to ransom by injury far more than it is now and that's why we have had guests for over half a century.

It might be an alien concept to newcomers, but then as has been said many times you simply cannot judge one sport by another. To do so is not just ridiculous, its bizarre. 

Problem is we don't live in an ideal world 

If I am honest, I also do not understand why a doubling up (or loaned) rider could not be seen as a member of your team - I have certainly never heard anyone say that before, much less use it as a reason for giving up on speedway. 

The suggestion that Mildenhall fans will walk away in their hundreds because Drew Kemp is now riding for Ipswich or that Ipswich fans will object violently to his presence in their team because he rides for Mildenhall is nonsense. 

The issue is that doubling up is way out of control. At one point this season 6 of the 7 Ipswich riders rode for another UK team. When it was introduced back in the early 2000s then know as the floater Ipswich had 2 riders who rode in the lower league sharing one team place. That is not to bad and a similar system was used in the 80s when Carl Blackbird rode for Ipswich and Mildenhall having a couple of riders sharing one spot probably wouldn't do much harm.

In terms of guests the sport had the boom time of the 70s and 80s to sort that out and at least one forward thinking promotion at the time tried get the BSPA to work on a solution. The the sport in this country had been forward thinking then or have the will now then you could over come the guest Issue Poland seems to manage. 

Just supposing for one second that the sport was invited to apply for lottery money or a major investor wanted to get involved in relaunched the leagues with a large sum of money. 

Chapman and Godfrey turn up and are asked to explain the basic way the leagues work and the answer is this 

We have two main leagues with 16 clubs between them. 

A rider can sign for a team in both leagues and if he does then he can more or less ride for every team in either league under our World leading 'guest system' to allow cover for injuries or if a rider missing from a contracted fixture because he is riding in Europe because they pay more. 

It's quite possible that a rider could score points as a guest for another team that could put his contracted team out of the league title fight. 

It's also possible that in a 2 legged final a rider could ride for both teams. 

More over if we find halfway through the season that due to riders riding for their contracted clubs on that clubs agreed race night we can force those clubs to cancel fixtures so that their contracted riders can quest for another team on the same night. 

These cancelled fixtures could also mean that those clubs miss the play offs as they won't have completed their fixtures by the agreed cut of date. 

At that point the investor finishes the meeting with thank you I'll be in touch. 

Mind you they could always pitch that in dragons den now that would make great TV! 

Edited by Spl77
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We have gone into this before ..you could  take examples in  any sport  and make it look stupid if you wanted to but does it  really stop major investors or stop  fans stop going ? lets take f1 ..major investor turns up and asks what the rules are  . he's told that the best drivers get cars that are faster than worst drivers in slower cars and not only that they start in front of them meaning there is about 5 passes per race over 72 laps ...no tv station or fans are going to want that are they ? on wait a min there 100,0000  fans who have just  turn up .look at the people who used to go on about the old one off world final and look at the crowds it got ..but then you  look at the  rules on how you got there  and they were stupid   but you still had  80k turn up at Wembley . 

As I said   since we got to fixed race night this years and as the stats show they  had made a massive different to amount of guests that are  used and  in some cases clubs had  there best stats in 25 years, but have the fans come back because of that ? when the answer is no and that  shows that people are not as  worried about that than is made out 

In a ideal world we would have no guests or rr and no  double up  riders ..but after all this time no one has come up with a better idea that would work without having a massive  effect on gate receipts.  They made  a effort this year to cut down on guests and to make sure that teams had more chance of putting the same one to seven out each week ..and what  has  happened ? people moaning  wanted to go back and  having there own race nights back and even more guests .

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