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The continuing decline of Speedway

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2 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...yes the seventies when speedway enjoyed coverage in the mass media and terrestrial TV and attracted thousands of people instead of hundreds and England ruled and teams filled with British riders and the Second Division was a conveyor belt for developing talent. 

Comparing speedway to football and the Play-Off system as your earlier post highlighted is a totally different scenario as has been pointed out. Tweaking and playing about with rules and the unavailability, or indeed unwillingness, of some riders from competing in Britain won't encourage new fans to the sport hence the continuing decline. Not forgetting the impact that the GP's have created regarding the domestic programme over the years despite it's good (?) intentions.

I compared speedway to every other sport that has play offs and all of them are a massive success but somehow if we don't have them in speedway  all the crowds will come back and like the numbers that has flocked back now that we don't have double points ...as i said these topics are always clog up with oap' s who  go back to the past with rules and things that won't work in the modern age  .Times have changed sadly speedway and its fans have not .

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15 minutes ago, orion said:

I compared speedway to every other sport that has play offs and all of them are a massive success but somehow if we don't have them in speedway  all the crowds will come back and like the numbers that has flocked back now that we don't have double points ...as i said these topics are always clog up with oap' s who  go back to the past with rules and things that won't work in the modern age  .Times have changed sadly speedway and its fans have not .

You've hit the nail on the head. Can you seriously imagine young fans standing on the terraces filling in programs the way we used to (still do)? They want electronic timing, fastest laps, big screen replays, modern looking bikes, manufacturer imputs etc etc

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33 minutes ago, orion said:

I compared speedway to every other sport that has play offs and all of them are a massive success but somehow if we don't have them in speedway  all the crowds will come back and like the numbers that has flocked back now that we don't have double points ...as i said these topics are always clog up with oap' s who  go back to the past with rules and things that won't work in the modern age  .Times have changed sadly speedway and its fans have not .

...your comparison with Play Offs was primarily about football. Totally different scenario. Football will always be successful due to the massive media attention it receives and constant brainwashing. Whatever speedway comes up with it will never be able to compete on equal terms.

Interesting your comment about rule changes but speedway ran along quite successfully with little manipulation and/or changes to the rule book. The constant changing of race formula, points limits etc etc during the late eighties was one of many factors that caused the gradual decline of the sport. It's obvious that changes haven't brought the necessary crowds back to speedway despite suggesting that times have changed and speedway needs to move on.

Personally I feel that the sport has reached a level that is unsustainable and all the tweaking will not alter that.

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1 hour ago, winstoncigar said:

You've hit the nail on the head. Can you seriously imagine young fans standing on the terraces filling in programs the way we used to (still do)? They want electronic timing, fastest laps, big screen replays, modern looking bikes, manufacturer imputs etc etc

 

Personally I feel that many youngsters are just not interested in attractions and/or sports (there was an interesting post earlier regarding younger fans and football) as previous generations once were. I work within tourism and unfortunately many museums have now had to 'dumb down' to accommodate the short attention spell of youngsters generally as well as their parents in some instances. If it's not about pressing buttons they're not interested and you sense the boredom and general apathy all around you.

You'd be amazed the number of times I've attempted to grab the attention of school parties where many of them are plainly ignoring me whilst staring into their personal devices...despite it supposing to being an educational visit and of course their supervisors often do nothing to help matters!

The price we have to pay unfortunately whereby technology rules over many other things in life. My motto is "I control technology and where I wish to engage but I don't allow it to control me"

Edited by steve roberts
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12 hours ago, orion said:

Why would they  be more meaningful ? it's stands to reason with out play offs there would  be a lot less ..if team went clear after 6 weeks there would nothing more to race for and crowds would be even lower 

That isn't how it was in the pre play off days. Yes, fans wanted to finish top of the league but with a league of 16 - 19 teams that wasn't the only interest just as it isn't now in the football PL. Interest was retained because it was an achievement to finish in the top 3, because you wanted your team to finish higher than your local rivals or the teams you disliked or because you wanted to avoid the wooden spoon. Just as in the football PL you had an expectation for your team, which wasn't necessarily that they would finish top or thereabouts and the interest was in watching to see if they could achieve your expectation or hopefully, exceed it. 

With play offs the interest isn't there until about this time of year when the real fight for a play off place begins. In fact, as Mark Lemon has highlighted, there is an argument not to do well in the earlier part of the season to drop below the team building total and give yourself opportunities to replace original team members with better riders at the business end. Fans know that meetings in the first half of the season are often meaningless and some pick and choose or wait until they become more important before spending their hard earned money. People will always point to the attendance for the play offs as the justification for them. Those attendances are not what they were and what we need to be looking at is the attendance figures over the season not a few meetings at the end. If we hope to attract people to the sport we have to ensure that every meeting or, at least, as many as possible have relevance and importance. If they don't matter many fans won't be bothered about attending.

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On the subject of play-offs not deciding league winners in football.. it does happen in countries such as Australia and the USA.

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2 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...your comparison with Play Offs was primarily about football. Totally different scenario. Football will always be successful due to the massive media attention it receives and constant brainwashing. Whatever speedway comes up with it will never be able to compete on equal terms.

Interesting your comment about rule changes but speedway ran along quite successfully with little manipulation and/or changes to the rule book. The constant changing of race formula, points limits etc etc during the late eighties was one of many factors that caused the gradual decline of the sport. It's obvious that changes haven't brought the necessary crowds back to speedway despite suggesting that times have changed and speedway needs to move on.

Personally I feel that the sport has reached a level that is unsustainable and all the tweaking will not alter that.

The only person who keeps saying about football is you Ive not said about football once .I said every other sport that has play offs ..maybe the nasty media have brain washed them about all these other sports that have play offs that fans love as well. It's pretty clear that once the UK was not the be all and end all of world speedway things were never goingvto be the same hence why things that worked in the golden era are not going to work now .

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33 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

That isn't how it was in the pre play off days. Yes, fans wanted to finish top of the league but with a league of 16 - 19 teams that wasn't the only interest just as it isn't now in the football PL. Interest was retained because it was an achievement to finish in the top 3, because you wanted your team to finish higher than your local rivals or the teams you disliked or because you wanted to avoid the wooden spoon. Just as in the football PL you had an expectation for your team, which wasn't necessarily that they would finish top or thereabouts and the interest was in watching to see if they could achieve your expectation or hopefully, exceed it. 

With play offs the interest isn't there until about this time of year when the real fight for a play off place begins. In fact, as Mark Lemon has highlighted, there is an argument not to do well in the earlier part of the season to drop below the team building total and give yourself opportunities to replace original team members with better riders at the business end. Fans know that meetings in the first half of the season are often meaningless and some pick and choose or wait until they become more important before spending their hard earned money. People will always point to the attendance for the play offs as the justification for them. Those attendances are not what they were and what we need to be looking at is the attendance figures over the season not a few meetings at the end. If we hope to attract people to the sport we have to ensure that every meeting or, at least, as many as possible have relevance and importance. If they don't matter many fans won't be bothered about attending.

Yet again  the modern fan would not care if his team came 3rd if There were no play offs .time has moved on .as I said before play offs give most teams something race for  all season .if Poole say say have much bette team r than anyone else at go clear by June it would mean no else would have anything to race for and the season would be over and the modern fan would not turn up .The bottom line is play offs are a massive success in all sports ,so for oaps mainly to say they are a big reason why fans don't come to UK speedway anymore  is insane .

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13 minutes ago, orion said:

The only person who keeps saying about football is you Ive not said about football once .I said every other sport that has play offs ..maybe the nasty media have brain washed them about all these other sports that have play offs that fans love as well. It's pretty clear that once the UK was not the be all and end all of world speedway things were never goingvto be the same hence why things that worked in the golden era are not going to work now .

...yes my comment was based on your initial comment about Play-Offs within other sports (to which football falls within) to which I, and others, made the comparison that in football (and apparently some other sports) teams that finish top of their respected leagues are crowned champions. Play-Offs are there to formalise promotion and regulation issues. Speedway set a different agenda. I wasn't specifically questioning the popularity of same just that Play-Offs constitute different agendas in other sports and if that attracts 'Joe Public' so be it but speedway has far greater issues within the bigger picture requiring more than tweaking rules and race formulas etc.

As regards the 'so called' Golden Era speedway pretty well survived...it's not until things were messed around with to bring it supposedly 'up to date' and attract those missing fans (late 1980's if you like?) that it lost it's way and as I said with the introduction of the GPs speedway in this country was always going to suffer and no longer was  the 'hot bed' that it once was for better or worse...down to one's own personal opinion and/or views of course.

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3 hours ago, winstoncigar said:

You've hit the nail on the head. Can you seriously imagine young fans standing on the terraces filling in programs the way we used to (still do)? They want electronic timing, fastest laps, big screen replays, modern looking bikes, manufacturer imputs etc etc

Now this certainly got me thinking - it may not be popular but I think its definitely something that is overlooked a lot by people. Everyone here has an interest in speedway and understands the inner workings to an extent. Because of this, we are all looking deep into the technical details of the sport, which is not where the casual viewer is attracted.

Fundamentally, to a casual observer, there are 4 bikes on a track going round in a circle. Now we can change the tactical rule, double points, guest bookings, gate positions, doubling up etc etc and it will make zero difference to what the casual observer sees. There will still be 4 bikes sliding round a track. It's only us "committed supporters" that will notice, and we will just moan about something else instead. Its the same in every walk of life.

Now I have become more of a causal supporter these days, I just dont have the time. When I do get visit a track for a meeting, I often pass on a programme and take my seat / position somewhere in the stand / terraces and hover about a bit until something happens on track. I can't understand the tannoy systems (either too echoey / quiet / loud) - but this is a general tanoy system thing, not just poor speedway tracks tanoys - they just arent a great way of getting information over. I see bikes to the right in a fenced off area, this must be the pits - OK got it! Then there is a track - OK thats where they race, got it! - Then what? 4 blokes come out in different helmet colours that I probably havent even noticed and then they race around - 4 laps a race, OK - Got it!

45 minutes later and 8 races down and they are coming out again - are these the same people? different people? who is winning? what is the score? how many races are left? what team am I supporting? are they teams? are they 4 teams? what are points? how do points work?

When I have taken someone along for the first time, these are the questions I get asked all the time and spend half the meeting trying to explain - its not difficult, but speedway makes itself that way!

A simple scoreboard on the center green can answer most of these questions without them having to ask. Display the thing just like the programme. Riders, Teams, Heats and Helmet colours - just like the programme.

Add in a 2 minute timer so people understand what that is about. Suddenly a casual viewer who has turned up randomly to see what all the noise actually is every week, has a vague understanding of what is actually happening, when and why.

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29 minutes ago, orion said:

Yet again  the modern fan would not care if his team came 3rd if There were no play offs .time has moved on .as I said before play offs give most teams something race for  all season .if Poole say say have much bette team r than anyone else at go clear by June it would mean no else would have anything to race for and the season would be over and the modern fan would not turn up .The bottom line is play offs are a massive success in all sports ,so for oaps mainly to say they are a big reason why fans don't come to UK speedway anymore  is insane .

...that's  the problem. There just aren't enough 'modern fans' and speedway has greater more pressing issues if it wishes to attract younger fans. Cutting rider's costs would be a step in the right direction but that would ultimately mean the 'stars' looking elsewhere to ride which may not be a bad thing. Perhaps going semi-amateur maybe the way forward but it's pure conjecture...question of what people now expect within any form of entertainment. 

Yes Play-Offs are one aspect but there's more to it than that regarding speedway's future...not sure why you keep bringing up oaps into the discussion? I certainly don't qualify.

I don't have any answers (there are many better qualified than me on the forum) but sadly neither do the BSPA and/or the controlling authorities  by all accounts judging by the lack of apathy on the terraces based on attendance levels.

Edited by steve roberts

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1 minute ago, yahoho said:

Now this certainly got me thinking - it may not be popular but I think its definitely something that is overlooked a lot by people. Everyone here has an interest in speedway and understands the inner workings to an extent. Because of this, we are all looking deep into the technical details of the sport, which is not where the casual viewer is attracted.

Fundamentally, to a casual observer, there are 4 bikes on a track going round in a circle. Now we can change the tactical rule, double points, guest bookings, gate positions, doubling up etc etc and it will make zero difference to what the casual observer sees. There will still be 4 bikes sliding round a track. It's only us "committed supporters" that will notice, and we will just moan about something else instead. Its the same in every walk of life.

Now I have become more of a causal supporter these days, I just dont have the time. When I do get visit a track for a meeting, I often pass on a programme and take my seat / position somewhere in the stand / terraces and hover about a bit until something happens on track. I can't understand the tannoy systems (either too echoey / quiet / loud) - but this is a general tanoy system thing, not just poor speedway tracks tanoys - they just arent a great way of getting information over. I see bikes to the right in a fenced off area, this must be the pits - OK got it! Then there is a track - OK thats where they race, got it! - Then what? 4 blokes come out in different helmet colours that I probably havent even noticed and then they race around - 4 laps a race, OK - Got it!

45 minutes later and 8 races down and they are coming out again - are these the same people? different people? who is winning? what is the score? how many races are left? what team am I supporting? are they teams? are they 4 teams? what are points? how do points work?

When I have taken someone along for the first time, these are the questions I get asked all the time and spend half the meeting trying to explain - its not difficult, but speedway makes itself that way!

A simple scoreboard on the center green can answer most of these questions without them having to ask. Display the thing just like the programme. Riders, Teams, Heats and Helmet colours - just like the programme.

Add in a 2 minute timer so people understand what that is about. Suddenly a casual viewer who has turned up randomly to see what all the noise actually is every week, has a vague understanding of what is actually happening, when and why.

I wouldn't say it even needs a programme type scoreboard. Just a scoreboard.

Home and away and how many points they have. This would make so much difference in making it look like a team sport. I think they shy away from this as they think they will lose programme sales, but I think it is essential to have this permanently on display.

Having the 2 minute countdown on there is a nice idea though.

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27 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...yes my comment was based on your initial comment about Play-Offs within other sports (to which football falls within) to which I, and others, made the comparison that in football (and apparently some other sports) teams that finish top of their respected leagues are crowned champions. Play-Offs are there to formalise promotion and regulation issues. Speedway set a different agenda. I wasn't specifically questioning the popularity of same just that Play-Offs constitute different agendas in other sports and if that attracts 'Joe Public' so be it but speedway has far greater issues within the bigger picture requiring more than tweaking rules and race formulas etc.

As regards the 'so called' Golden Era speedway pretty well survived...it's not until things were messed around with to bring it supposedly 'up to date' and attract those missing fans (late 1980's if you like?) that it lost it's way and as I said with the introduction of the GPs speedway in this country was always going to suffer and no longer was  the 'hot bed' that it once was for better or worse...down to one's own personal opinion and/or views of course.

It had to change as the uk was not the number one in speedway anymore .They could just have 7 race days all the riders etc etc anymore .Yet again speedway  does not have his  own agenda when it comes to play offs .plenty have the same rules and the champions are chosen by this method and are packed with fans. how come rugby fans don't pick and choose the matches at the  start of the season?.No doubt another only in speedway fan rule .

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We should just admit it. We fall for the sport because we love it. The novelty then wears off. We then decide there are things about it we don't like and want our own ideas implementing and don't like any new idea. We also think it could be run better and want people who have put their money in to take our ideas on board. When they don't, we gradually stop attending as we don't like most new ideas. But it is simple... we never feel the same way about speedway as we did in our initial years and always want to change it. Bit like being married really.

Edited by moxey63
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When your clientele is old farts, of course you’re going to attempt to bring in a younger crowd. What you don’t do is implement a system (or systems) that helps drive these old farts away whilst simultaneously failing to attract newbies. 

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