mikebv 10,243 Posted August 9, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, orion said: Fans said they wanted less guests etc so chapman brought in fixed race nights to help ...the result was fans moaning about the race night . ...You can't replace main riders with juniors as it effects the crowd levels . I hate to say it but there are no easy answers ..even when you give the fans what they want they still moan "Less guests" is your typical Speedway half arsed measure of success., But as we know, in reality it's no measure at all.. How many guests can be used to keep the Sports credibility and integrity? How many guests can be used before the Sport has no credibilty and integrity? A typical Speedway measure of success based on subjectivity rather than a tangible attainment... BV have been involved in meetings containing 17 Guests this year. (14 used by them). Is that OK? Does that maintain credibilty or not? Or is 16 the level of success? Or maybe 18 or 19, before credibilty is lost..? One thing has though clearly emerged by the way 'fixed nights' have been implemented.. And that is Guest riders are a main fundamental part of the operating and business model of the Sport (if they were not then simply all teams would have been planned in to ride on the same night)... Therefore the Sport has gone well past its tipping point re ever being ran like a 'proper sport', so surely the best thing for it to do, is to leave each club to run whenever it likes on nights it can bring the most customers in? Guests will always be required it seems as there is no appetite to change this, so you might as well just put out two teams of any random riders on the best nights for your customers who (by the definition of still attending as they do) don't see Guestfests as an issue, (or if they do, they see it as a lesser issue than how the race night negatively effects their capabilty to attend).. BV this year has seen crowds drop. They have used many Guests (or maybe not that many, who knows???) However, riding on a Friday or Saturday would still have meant Guests (and maybe even more), but crowds would have been 300-400 bigger I would suggest.. And an extra 8000 punters per season would bring circa £100k in after VAT (about a third of the rent)... Time to accept what we have is all there will be and stop trying to meet things 'halfway'.. If it has to be Guestfest after Guestfest then so be it... But be transparent about it... Edited August 10, 2018 by mikebv 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevehone 3,425 Posted August 9, 2018 the decline started in this country when Ronnie Russell was allowed to sign foreign (non-Commonwealth) riders in the old NL. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,242 Posted August 10, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, stevehone said: the decline started in this country when Ronnie Russell was allowed to sign foreign (non-Commonwealth) riders in the old NL. ...I would agree although Jens Rasmussen (one of Rye House's foreign signings) was a favourite of mine at Cowley but he was one of those middle order riders who were continually victimised and/or sacrificed because of varying points limits and found himself without a team place. The flood gates then opened and many mediocre foreign imports began to infiltrate the National League depriving opportunities to British riders which was one reason why the Old Second/National League was first implemented. That.of course, diminished over the years and one could argue that Mervyn Stewkesbury didn't help matters during his tenure. Edited August 10, 2018 by steve roberts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Whisperer 276 Posted August 10, 2018 7 hours ago, mikebv said: "Less guests" is your typical Speedway half arsed measure of success., But as we know, in reality it's no measure at all.. How many guests can be used to keep the Sports credibility and integrity? How many guests can be used before the Sport has no credibilty and integrity? A typical Speedway measure of success based on subjectivity rather than a tangible attainment... BV have been involved in meetings containing 17 Guests this year. (14 used by them). Is that OK? Does that maintain credibilty or not? Or is 16 the level or success? Or maybe 18 or 19, before credibilty is lost..? One thing has though clearly emerged by the way 'fixed nights' have been implemented.. And that is Guest riders are a main fundamental part of the operating and business model of the Sport (if they were not then simply all teams would have been planned in to ride on the same night)... Therefore the Sport has gone well past its tipping point re ever being ran like a 'proper sport', so surely the best thing for it to do, is to leave each club to run whenever it likes on nights it can bring the most customers in? Guests will always be required it seems as there is no appetite to change this, so you might as well just put out two teams of any random riders on the best nights for your customers who (by the definition of still attending as they do) don't see Guestfests as an issue, (or if they do, they see it as a lesser issue than how the race night negatively effects their capabilty to attend).. BV this year has seen crowds drop. They have used many Guests (or maybe not that many), who knows??? However, riding on a Friday or Saturday would still have meant Guests (and maybe even more), but crowds would have been 300-400 bigger I would suggest.. And an extra 8000 punters per season would bring circa £100k in after VAT (about a third of the rent)... Time to accept what we have is all there will be and stop trying to meet things 'halfway'.. If it has to be Guestfest after Guestfest then so be it... But be transparent about it... So they ignore the plight of clubs who are forced to change race night and it's no secret that Rye House and Belle Vue opposed it, switching back will not automatically bring all those lost customers back they will need to be enticed. The one league proposal may do that but this solution will increase the costs of the surviving CL clubs who are losing money so they lose more and the current PL clubs will have a small cost reduction so may lose less per meeting but will have more meetings so they lose more money too! The next solution is to reduce it to say 13 heats to take 12 points out of a match and maybe a bonus point too and/or 5/6 rider teams to reduce travel, sign on, vans, mechanics, tyres, fuel, insurance and accomodation cost that some of these silly battards have been paying. To me this is rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic, they're not clever enough to implement it and they do not have the personal integrity to agree, uphold and abide by the rules and regulations to make it work. A cheque book Speedway club will win the league and ultimately it will fail for the same reasons as last time. Exeter, Long Eaton and Sheffield were left without number ones and had to throw a small fortune at Loram, Correy and Ermolenko to get them out of the mire and stop them losing at home. The top riders went to the top payers simple as. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spl77 337 Posted August 10, 2018 10 hours ago, orion said: Fans said they wanted less guests etc so chapman brought in fixed race nights to help ...the result was fans moaning about the race night . ...You can't replace main riders with juniors as it effects the crowd levels . I hate to say it but there are no easy answers ..even when you give the fans what they want they still moan Interesting that you failed to reply to the doubling up point I made this has possibly become more of an issue in harming the credibility than guests however the two combined are a death sentence. I was just reading an article on Simon Cross. In that he mention that he should have quit when Cradley closed as that was his club and the riders fans and management were one big family. With the doubling up and guest fest of today that feeling can't apply to any club. It certainly doesn't at Ipswich which is why I haven't been for many years. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,612 Posted August 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Spl77 said: Interesting that you failed to reply to the doubling up point I made this has possibly become more of an issue in harming the credibility than guests however the two combined are a death sentence. I was just reading an article on Simon Cross. In that he mention that he should have quit when Cradley closed as that was his club and the riders fans and management were one big family. With the doubling up and guest fest of today that feeling can't apply to any club. It certainly doesn't at Ipswich which is why I haven't been for many years. Credibility is over egged in speedway .in the old days will still had guests and rr and we had a world speedway final that make sure that it never top 16 in the world in it but still 70 k of fans came and watched . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Smith 5,646 Posted August 10, 2018 British Speedway needs guests and it needs doubling up. None of these discredit the sport. With riders doubling up, they still belong to those clubs and with fixed race night's the clash issue doesn't exist like 2017. What does discredit the sport is certain promoters who power trip, make up rules, make up rider's averages and dictate other clubs fixtures. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,243 Posted August 10, 2018 (edited) 42 minutes ago, orion said: Credibility is over egged in speedway .in the old days will still had guests and rr and we had a world speedway final that make sure that it never top 16 in the world in it but still 70 k of fans came and watched . We also didn't have the Internet or Social Media, so often would turn up to watch a Speedway meeting, pay to get in, and only then find out PC had been replaced, or your team or the other had three or four guests... What we did have though was National terrestrial TV showing meetings most weeks that had no guest riders as they were individual meetings, which then had a positive spin off for the domestic Leagues... You could watch the riders (most weeks) that you saw in TV on the Saturday... And at a reasonable admission cost too.. Simply, if Football, Cricket, Rugby Union/League, etc etc did the same and used 'Guests/Ringers' to cover absenses then those sports too would (quite rightly) open themselves up to ridicule in this modern era of 24/7 information and (also quite rightly) have a deserved reputation of being a bit 'Mickey Mouse'... Nowadays your 'brand' is so, so important... And the credibilty of what any 'brand' stands for/puts out/produces, is absolutely the most important stand alone asset it has. Everything else that comes from this, (good or bad, positive or negative), 100% starts from its credibilty rating in the eyes of the general public, which in turn, will directly influence them to utilise the products/services provided (or not as the case may be)..... Edited August 10, 2018 by mikebv Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moxey63 1,785 Posted August 10, 2018 20 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said: British Speedway needs guests and it needs doubling up. None of these discredit the sport. With riders doubling up, they still belong to those clubs and with fixed race night's the clash issue doesn't exist like 2017. 1 Please tell me you're joking. I'd say they're up there with the Joker and Golden Double. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spl77 337 Posted August 10, 2018 43 minutes ago, orion said: Credibility is over egged in speedway .in the old days will still had guests and rr and we had a world speedway final that make sure that it never top 16 in the world in it but still 70 k of fans came and watched . Please tell me that you're joking? With comments with that are you sure that you're not a member of the BSPA? Credibility is what speedway needs before it can even think about trying to reinvent its self and stop the alarming slide in fan base. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,612 Posted August 10, 2018 23 minutes ago, mikebv said: We also didn't have the Internet or Social Media, so often would turn up to watch a Speedway meeting, pay to get in, and only then find out PC had been replaced, or your team or the other had three or four guests... What we did have though was National terrestrial TV showing meetings most weeks that had no guest riders as they were individual meetings, which then had a positive spin off for the domestic Leagues... You could watch the riders (most weeks) that you saw in TV on the Saturday... And at a reasonable admission cost too.. Simply, if Football, Cricket, Rugby Union/League, etc etc did the same and used 'Guests/Ringers' to cover absenses then those sports too would (quite rightly) open themselves up to ridicule in this modern era of 24/7 information and (also quite rightly) have a deserved reputation of being a bit 'Mickey Mouse'... Nowadays your 'brand' is so, so important... And the credibilty of what any 'brand' stands for/puts out/produces, is absolutely the most important stand alone asset it has. Everything else that comes from this, (good or bad, positive or negative), 100% starts from its credibilty rating in the eyes of the general public, which in turn, will directly influence them to utilise the products/services provided (or not as the case may be)..... A lot Football players teams are full of Loans players no one has a problem with that ..Football has a cup called the champions league that has teams without champions in it but is one most watched comp in the world ...anyone can pulled apart a sport with stupid rules they all have them Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spl77 337 Posted August 10, 2018 24 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said: British Speedway needs guests and it needs doubling up. None of these discredit the sport. With riders doubling up, they still belong to those clubs and with fixed race night's the clash issue doesn't exist like 2017. What does discredit the sport is certain promoters who power trip, make up rules, make up rider's averages and dictate other clubs fixtures. Both doubling up and guests massively discredit the sport. Both have been aloud to become the norm however neither are needed but are the easy option. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moxey63 1,785 Posted August 10, 2018 Rider Replacement isn't so bad. But (and this happened over the sport's lifespan) when a rider can turn out as a guest for a team that's challenging his own club for the title, try explaining that to a newbie. In fact, even longtime supporters must wince at this one. To me, guests and doubling up and down just shows that promoters have become a little too lazy and aren't trying to fetch in new talent from home and abroad. Dent Oliver produced five of his championship winning teams by hard work at the Belle Vue training school. Others at the time benefitted when Rider Control took many off the Aces. While allowing the doubling rider rule, promoters have it made and don't have to try. It smacks of a small-time sport not only lacking fans but riders. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crump99 4,474 Posted August 10, 2018 On 5/23/2018 at 6:56 AM, foamfence said: Is there a decline? There certainly is since my early visits in the 50s but is it continued, is it worse now than two or three years ago? I ask because my local tracks are long gone. Well the thread's hit 50 pages so something is going on! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spl77 337 Posted August 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, orion said: A lot Football players teams are full of Loans players no one has a problem with that ..Football has a cup called the champions league that has teams without champions in it but is one most watched comp in the world ...anyone can pulled apart a sport with stupid rules they all have them But loan players don't play for more than one club at a time do they? As for the champions league I kind of agree with you. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
