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BSPA Upset the Poles

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so going back a short time, Jack Holder (having a contract with a Polish club) missing Peterborough meetings on a Sunday wasn't really anything that could be stopped if Poland have priority on that day

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19 minutes ago, NeilWatson said:

http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/download/65665/no_cache/1/

Page 64 et seq details the ISLB weekly slot system

So absolutely no provision agreed for British Championship League meetings.....

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16 minutes ago, stevehone said:

so going back a short time, Jack Holder (having a contract with a Polish club) missing Peterborough meetings on a Sunday wasn't really anything that could be stopped if Poland have priority on that day

This FIM controlled rule on priority days came to force for this season. Last year's saga was about something else.

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25 minutes ago, NeilWatson said:

http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/download/65665/no_cache/1/

Page 64 et seq details the ISLB weekly slot system

Thank you.

That clarifies that the position is not as simple as the calendar suggests. Interesting that the Swedish second division has priority, after our PL, on Thursday, after our PL but it seems that our CL has no priority at all. Probably, because of the problems of the multi race nights but nonetheless they cannot claim priority on any night.

Edited by Aces51

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2 hours ago, Aces51 said:

Thank you.

That clarifies that the position is not as simple as the calendar suggests. Interesting that the Swedish second division has priority, after our PL, on Thursday, after our PL but it seems that our CL has no priority at all. Probably, because of the problems of the multi race nights but nonetheless they cannot claim priority on any night.

The rules are certainly clear that priority doesn't go to all Polish leagues on all the Polish days. I wonder why they did such a poor job of making that clear in the calendar!

To me it looks like section 2 of the clash of dates rule has maybe been written to be helpful to UK Championship teams. As you said, the multiple race nights  makes it difficult to give priority anywhere. But in the scanario where no priority day exists, giving priority to the team that the rider has raced for more, it obviously favours a league with more meetings.

For example, you would expect most clashes between Championship meetings and the Danish league matches on Fridays to go in favour of the Championship team.

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Just supposing the BSPA were to decide to no longer participate in the international leagues schedule. 

Supposing it then requires any rider signed to a UK team, to agree to a contract which requires their priority availability all season, seven days per week except for international events - how many would sign it?

Or from Monday to Saturday - how many would sign it?

Or from Monday to Saturday except Tuesdays?

Or to include just Mondays, Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays? - how many riders would go for that?

And would the numbers prepared to sign, be sufficient to form enough teams to enable a credible league to be run?

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On 31 May 2018 at 5:11 AM, Halifaxtiger said:

I wonder how many riders we would have left if we insisted that British Speedway had priority at all times. For Belle Vue, Cook, Fricke, Tungate, Drodz and Bewley all have Polish contracts. The chance of a clash is very small, but you're looking for an absolute guarantee.

Practicality suggests that we have to allow them to ride elsewhere and that there is an agreement regarding who has preference in the event of a clash. If we want the Poles to co-operate we simply have to honour our side of the bargain.

If we allow them to ride elsewhere as by agreement,we should stop GB clubs refusing fixtures because their riders are riding elsewhere then! It is just messing up GB fixtures.Its all abit of a joke now.IMO.

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If you  take somebody like Richard Lawson for example - a good old "bread and butter" British rider, the sort who you would think essential to the UK leagues. According to SS, he has a place with Opole, a team in the Polish third tier.

If Richard was asked to commit to a UK contract requiring him to effectively guarantee priority to UK fixtures in the event of any clash with an Opole match for which they also required him, would he do so? Depends on how important, financially and/or otherwise, a squad place with Opole is for him when set against being fully available for his UK teams especially if, as someone has said on here, the UK hoists the Union Jack and builds its league calendar around Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays.

Tempting though it is to take that route, I think it would create a serious rider shortage and a league with much fewer clubs at somewhere between current CL and NL level. The efforts and case for saving Brandon would become pointless, the NSS would probably become redundant for speedway. Is that what we want?

The other way is to negotiate with other nations and keep trying to find an agreeable, acceptable solution.

The problem is, though, you have to have you own house in order before you can do that. And the UK still hasn't done that. 

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12 hours ago, Hamish McRaker said:

Just supposing the BSPA were to decide to no longer participate in the international leagues schedule. 

Supposing it then requires any rider signed to a UK team, to agree to a contract which requires their priority availability all season, seven days per week except for international events - how many would sign it?

Or from Monday to Saturday - how many would sign it?

Or from Monday to Saturday except Tuesdays?

Or to include just Mondays, Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays? - how many riders would go for that?

And would the numbers prepared to sign, be sufficient to form enough teams to enable a credible league to be run?

I think you'd lose half of the Premiership and a third of the Championship riders with the above suggestion. I don't think your various options would make much difference as there are only a handful of Swedes in the leagues who would benefit from a Tuesday exception and lots of Danes who would be looking for a Wednesday exception, which means only your final option might appeal to more than a handful of riders.

You also have two other issues, firstly the problem of Poland slowly expanding onto Friday and secondly your definition of "international event". Presumably this would include GPs and the qualifiers? What about U21s both individual and team events? SEC and various Euro individual, team and pairs events? Domestic championships which many also now include qualifiers? This should cover off many of the Saturdays across the season.

Therefore, if you want to demand priority and not alienate the majority of riders you are limited to running on just Monday and Thursday.

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I don't think the number of riders choosing Poland would be anything like the numbers some are suggesting. For many of the current riders, who race mainly for Polish league 1 and 2 teams, a guaranteed 30 plus meetings in the UK in one big league would be more attractive than being part of a Polish league 1 squad with no guarantee of being a regular pick.

They may not like having their opportunity to race abroad curtailed but I think many would accept it.

The UK has got to find a way to operate that initially makes the sport here sustainable and then able to grow. Staying as we are is not an option.

Edited by Aces51
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3 hours ago, MattK said:

I think you'd lose half of the Premiership and a third of the Championship riders with the above suggestion. I don't think your various options would make much difference as there are only a handful of Swedes in the leagues who would benefit from a Tuesday exception and lots of Danes who would be looking for a Wednesday exception, which means only your final option might appeal to more than a handful of riders.

You also have two other issues, firstly the problem of Poland slowly expanding onto Friday and secondly your definition of "international event". Presumably this would include GPs and the qualifiers? What about U21s both individual and team events? SEC and various Euro individual, team and pairs events? Domestic championships which many also now include qualifiers? This should cover off many of the Saturdays across the season.

Therefore, if you want to demand priority and not alienate the majority of riders you are limited to running on just Monday and Thursday.

Yes that's the last resort scenario if none of the other above models are acceptable to make enough riders available.

But some people don't think that most UK based riders would stick with their Polish arrangement if presented with a choice.

Only one way the BSPA can find the answer I suppose.....ask them!!

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1 hour ago, Aces51 said:

I don't think the number of riders choosing Poland would be anything like the numbers some are suggesting. For many of the current riders, who race mainly for Polish league 1 and 2 teams, a guaranteed 30 plus meetings in the UK in one big league would be more attractive than being part of a Polish league 1 squad with no guarantee of being a regular pick.

They may not like having their opportunity to race abroad curtailed but I think many would accept it.

The UK has got to find a way to operate that initially makes the sport here sustainable and then able to grow. Staying as we are is not an option.

Is there any point in bringing hyperthetical situations like one big league with a guaranteed..,...into the discussion?We can say if that scenario happened then the Poles will up the ante and make offers the riders couldn’t refuse etc.

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3 hours ago, Hamish McRaker said:

Yes that's the last resort scenario if none of the other above models are acceptable to make enough riders available.

But some people don't think that most UK based riders would stick with their Polish arrangement if presented with a choice.

Only one way the BSPA can find the answer I suppose.....ask them!!

I was quite optimistic that British and Australian riders would stay, but assumed most European riders would opt out.

I find the overarching concept of the weakest league trying to dictate terms somewhat ridiculous. Poland can make rider demands. We should be trying to build our league back up by compromising with the stronger league not by alienating ourselves.

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22 hours ago, stevehone said:

so going back a short time, Jack Holder (having a contract with a Polish club) missing Peterborough meetings on a Sunday wasn't really anything that could be stopped if Poland have priority on that day

Except of course that the Holdergate situation last year was not a Peterborough fixture, but one of the BSPA Super 7 events which teams are required to be represented by their top riders by average. The details in the contract.

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31 minutes ago, Tsunami said:

Except of course that the Holdergate situation last year was not a Peterborough fixture, but one of the BSPA Super 7 events which teams are required to be represented by their top riders by average. The details in the contract.

What you mean like Newcastle’s Robert Lambert for example.

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