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Just now, Stoke Potter said:

Reality is we have one truly world class track and loads of flawed ones.  They have how many truly great tracks and how many as bad as most of ours?

Stadiums are not the point of the debate at the minute.  A few BV type tracks in fields would be a good start.

as I said spend some time in Poland, they have some real crap tracks that are in fields, did you watch the SEC FROM gustrow at the weekend?, a small track similar size to buxton that has a similar black type shale and was rough, completely the opposite to belle vue but there was some really good racing on it especially in the first half the meeting, the size of the track doesn't matter, all the size does is make the tuner more important  

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21 minutes ago, acef said:

So explain a bit more about the mechanics to me then. 

The bikes now are clearly more volatile and have higher revs, there is less throttle control so a bigger track is surely safer where there is more banking and run off to scrub your speed. 

I'm guessing the current lay down is always turning over a lot faster so even with the tap off your still revving high as f%%k in a race. 

Its the control of the motorbike at the lower end that has been lost, which in your opinion makes the bike dangerous? So on a smaller track its harder to get the back end out than it used to be because there is too much power in those moments. Is that what you mean? 

not just the lower end,its lost the mid range too, the back wheel is spinning about 1500 revs faster than it was 20 years ago but the bike speed is still pretty much the same, the light flywheels in a short stroke engine just makes it rev, it not all the engine the silencer has reduced the usable power a bit more, the bikes are relatively easy to ride no matter what the size of the track and on a smooth surface they behave but as soon as there is a build up of dirt or a rut they just take off, now imagine the bike takes off and you have to scrub that wheel spin off before you hit the fence , on a track like belle vue  you not so much broadsliding as steering a skid, you need the bike to be going forward all the time but on a smaller track you have to turn hard and you scrub a lot of speed off, on really tight tracks your almost going backwards mid turn, so do we really need extra wheelspin to go the same speed?, the product looks the same, many of the people I have spoken too have said we should never have gone from upright to laydown, even hans Nielsen and peter karlsson said it but we did and the first laydowns were great as they had the handling of the laydown chassis and the performance of the upright engines but as short strokes got more popular we are just getting further and further away from a good bike no matter how much they shine

Edited by THE DEAN MACHINE
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3 minutes ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

not just the lower end,its lost the mid range too, the back wheel is spinning about 1500 revs faster than it was 20 years ago but the bike speed is still pretty much the same, the light flywheels in a short stroke engine just makes it rev, it not all the engine the silencer has reduced the usable power a bit more, the bikes are relatively easy to ride no matter what the size of the track and on a smooth surface they behave but as soon as there is a build up of dirt or a rut they just take off, now imagine the bike takes off and you have to scrub that wheel spin off before you hit the fence , on a track like belle vue  you not so much broadsliding as steering a skid, you need the bike to be going forward all the time but on a smaller track you have to turn hard and you scrub a lot of speed off, on really tight tracks your almost going backwards mid turn

So even without the ruts or a bit too much dirt, the power at the low to mid range is still going to hurt you on a track like Rye for example. Your having to lose so much speed going into that corner and your essentially at a right angle, the thing just straightens out if you overcook it even it a little bit. 

I get where your coming from. The bikes make it hard and I certainly wouldn't fancy trying to keep it on the kerb on these smaller tracks. I'd be out by the boards and make the track as big as I could to keep the bike at its optimum momentum. 

What gets me there is the silencer. I know it plays such a huge roll but that is going to be hard to redevelop. Especially in the UK where the noise pisses off a lot of the locals. 

I also don't get how Greg would struggle if the engines were toned down a bit. If that's what you meant. 

He's straight outta calafornia on super tight tracks. He grew up with those machines 30 years ago. Surely he'd appreciate some better development 

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And speaking of track prep it would seem troy aint to impressed with Swindon tonight. 

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18 minutes ago, acef said:

So even without the ruts or a bit too much dirt, the power at the low to mid range is still going to hurt you on a track like Rye for example. Your having to lose so much speed going into that corner and your essentially at a right angle, the thing just straightens out if you overcook it even it a little bit. 

I get where your coming from. The bikes make it hard and I certainly wouldn't fancy trying to keep it on the kerb on these smaller tracks. I'd be out by the boards and make the track as big as I could to keep the bike at its optimum momentum. 

What gets me there is the silencer. I know it plays such a huge roll but that is going to be hard to redevelop. Especially in the UK where the noise pisses off a lot of the locals. 

I also don't get how Greg would struggle if the engines were toned down a bit. If that's what you meant. 

He's straight outta calafornia on super tight tracks. He grew up with those machines 30 years ago. Surely he'd appreciate some better development 

The product is a throttle that halves the turn on the bars, at the moment the throttle turns about 180 degrees  this new one turns about 90degrees so basically becoming a on off switch and Greg is a master of throttle control as he was brought up old school 

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1 hour ago, acef said:

Yep. And shiny bikes with neon colours. 

Its the 21st century. That's how we roll now. 

i can feel  a TRON moment coming on !

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1 hour ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

our product only differs because we have killed the team concept, we don't have a team to support anymore only in name , I used to be a wolves fan, who never missed a match, I have been twice this year because I cant relate to a team who has 5of the 7 riders riding for another team, in Poland your team is your team not someone elses team

Cook (until recently), Fricke, Tungate and Drozdz so that’s more than half the team only ride for one team in the UK yet the decline continues. 

Its doing my head in reading this thread as it’s going round and round rather, I suspect like a BSPA meeting. Everyone of you make good valid points but they are pretty much equal in respect to the decline of speedway. Stop trying to make out one is vastly more important than the other. 

Its like arguing over what caused the hole in the boat as it sinks. 

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12 minutes ago, ouch said:

Cook (until recently), Fricke, Tungate and Drozdz so that’s more than half the team only ride for one team in the UK yet the decline continues. 

Its doing my head in reading this thread as it’s going round and round rather, I suspect like a BSPA meeting. Everyone of you make good valid points but they are pretty much equal in respect to the decline of speedway. Stop trying to make out one is vastly more important than the other. 

Its like arguing over what caused the hole in the boat as it sinks. 

Isn’t this a forum ?we are just amusing ourself why we wait for your grand plan to fix the problems but your making us wait so we will just continue to amuse ourselves but thanks for the input 

Edited by THE DEAN MACHINE
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17 hours ago, mikebv said:

Bingo!! 

I am prepared to go to £15 though...:D

And my 15 yr old lad in for free obviously...;)

Rockerfeller!

13 hours ago, acef said:

Crowds are in double digit decline YOY. Its massive. The majority of fans may go for the team element but what is the majority now? 1k on average per top flight team? Its dropping like a stone so if I was developing this sport I would instantly change the dynamic. 

Speedway isn't adapting. You can't sell a product if the product isn't right. 

I've ran my own pubs/restaurants throughout my career. Without blowing my own trumpet, I'm very successful with it. My guest is KING. Absolutely nobody leaves my businesses unhappy. What the customer wants, the customer gets. Period. As a consequence my trip advisor ratings are through the roof. That is the basis of any business. Stability in the foundations. Make sure the product you sell is bang on the money and then you start to promote and sell/expand. 

This is where speedway fails every single time. You can't sell a team aspect if the racing (the core product/foundation) isn't right. 

I'm not saying the team element isn't important, it is, but it will stand for nothing if the main event doesn't capture your customer. 

I'll say for the umpteenth time, ask ANY neutral with a minimal knowledge of this sport how they feel about it, and they will all give the same answer. They are going to tell you they were bored. They are not interested in the team element. They only come once, because the main event didn't sell. 

If one of my restaurants started showing any sign of decline or poor guest feedback I would immediately pull the plug on any marketing or sales driving until I identified the issue and fixed it. That is called being counter productive and will do more harm than good trying to grow something that isn't working. 

If one of my businesses was in the same level of decline as speedway, I wouldn't be listening to the remaining guests I had telling me everything was fine, because it quite clearly isn't. Just because those minimal fans that attend speedway say they go for the team element doesn't mean that the team element is right, because your declining like crazy! It's an utterly stupid logic and displays a basic lack of common sense. A lot of supporters still in this sport are the same ones as 20/30 years ago. Speedway doesn't know how to capture a new audience and like it's core, declining fan base, is stuck in 1985. Society has moved forward. 

For speedway it really isn't difficult. The speedway is the hook, the team element is the sell. In that order. 

There's so much I could say about this, I thinks it's a rather simplistic view and an analogy that can't be made... but to keep up the analogy...

Imagine this restaurant you own is in a state of disrepair, the paint is peeling off the walls and you're ankle deep in p155 when you go to the toilet but people still keep coming because at heart the food is so damn good but then you are told by the council you can only open on Monday and Wednesday nights because that's what all of the other restaurants in the area have agreed even if you didn't and then all of a sudden one night the chef doesn't turn up because he's working at a restaurant down the road but it's ok because the council have arranged for one of the burger flippers at the local maccies to be sent in his place... but hang on this isn't a one off, it keeps happening, a lot of your customers stop coming but some continue to do so, you haven't changed your prices, you're still charging restaurant prices for fast food. One night you go out and ask one of the customers tucking into his Big Ace and ask him why does he keep coming, because I remember how good it can be here and occasionally it still is he replies. I'll go and ask some customers that used to come you think to yourself, only you step outside your restaurant and can't find any of them, they're all doing something else now. At this point you send the burger flipper back to macs, tell your chef he cooks for you and nobody else, you stick 2 fingers up to the council and take them to court for restriction of trade, you paint the place, mop up the p155

but do the customers return?

Edited by iainb
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10 hours ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

Isn’t this a forum ?we are just amusing ourself why we wait for your grand plan to fix the problems but your making us wait so we will just continue to amuse ourselves but thanks for the input 

I have put my suggestion on but it seems any attempt to come up with things is ignored in favor of your now tedious rhetoric. 

We know you views, sport repeating them after EVERY post. 

Christ, I noticed you less when you were riding. 

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12 hours ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

as I said spend some time in Poland, they have some real crap tracks that are in fields, did you watch the SEC FROM gustrow at the weekend?, a small track similar size to buxton that has a similar black type shale and was rough, completely the opposite to belle vue but there was some really good racing on it especially in the first half the meeting, the size of the track doesn't matter, all the size does is make the tuner more important  

Spot on.

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5 minutes ago, ouch said:

I have put my suggestion on but it seems any attempt to come up with things is ignored in favor of your now tedious rhetoric. 

We know you views, sport repeating them after EVERY post. 

Christ, I noticed you less when you were riding. 

Ok I will leave you to it, I’m obviously boring you so I won’t bother anymore 

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14 hours ago, acef said:

Crowds are in double digit decline YOY. Its massive. The majority of fans may go for the team element but what is the majority now? 1k on average per top flight team? Its dropping like a stone so if I was developing this sport I would instantly change the dynamic. 

Speedway isn't adapting. You can't sell a product if the product isn't right. 

I've ran my own pubs/restaurants throughout my career. Without blowing my own trumpet, I'm very successful with it. My guest is KING. Absolutely nobody leaves my businesses unhappy. What the customer wants, the customer gets. Period. As a consequence my trip advisor ratings are through the roof. That is the basis of any business. Stability in the foundations. Make sure the product you sell is bang on the money and then you start to promote and sell/expand. 

This is where speedway fails every single time. You can't sell a team aspect if the racing (the core product/foundation) isn't right. 

I'm not saying the team element isn't important, it is, but it will stand for nothing if the main event doesn't capture your customer. 

I'll say for the umpteenth time, ask ANY neutral with a minimal knowledge of this sport how they feel about it, and they will all give the same answer. They are going to tell you they were bored. They are not interested in the team element. They only come once, because the main event didn't sell. 

If one of my restaurants started showing any sign of decline or poor guest feedback I would immediately pull the plug on any marketing or sales driving until I identified the issue and fixed it. That is called being counter productive and will do more harm than good trying to grow something that isn't working. 

If one of my businesses was in the same level of decline as speedway, I wouldn't be listening to the remaining guests I had telling me everything was fine, because it quite clearly isn't. Just because those minimal fans that attend speedway say they go for the team element doesn't mean that the team element is right, because your declining like crazy! It's an utterly stupid logic and displays a basic lack of common sense. A lot of supporters still in this sport are the same ones as 20/30 years ago. Speedway doesn't know how to capture a new audience and like it's core, declining fan base, is stuck in 1985. Society has moved forward. 

For speedway it really isn't difficult. The speedway is the hook, the team element is the sell. In that order. 

Spot on...

You simply don't have a real team dynamic anymore in Britain, constantly eroded away over the past 20 years or so...

So how the hell does British Speedway expect any new fans to 'buy into it' without that vital emotional attachment you need to develop to make a team 'yours'?...

And why therefore, do they still try to 'sell it' to the populace as such?...

The Sport over here, and to be fair, elsewhere too, is just a vehicle for lads to earn money individually (the difference is other countries still stick to team sport principles within those parameters which has helped fans stay 'attached')....

What should be focused on is the fact that the Sport still has loads going for it to make it a success....

It seemingly just cannot be delivered successfully within a team framework over here..

Therefore, stop doing it and simply sell what is good about it..

ie. The racing itself, the noise, the speed, the smell (ish), the character and personality of the riders, the fact it is unique amongst all other 'town/city centre Sports, and the fact that those who watch invariably cannot do what they are watching the riders do. (Unlike other sports where most fans who watch can demonstrate at least some competence at it)..

Make it a full night's entertainment, make the night an 'event', promote and market the riders, create a bit of hype about them individually, create 'feuds' (they don't need to be genuine), advertise a huge prize fund, (even if a little economical with the truth;))...

Make the riders 'stars', build the sport back up, and maybe over time intergrate in a team dynamic to see if it can be a success again..

The Sport has so much going for it...

So surely its now time for the Promoters (who willingly invest so much into it) to concentrate their efforts on what is good about Speedway, dispense with all the ridiculous 'nonsense' that so undermines their genuine commitment and efforts, and start to deliver the kind of success a Sport, that can truly be uniquely breathtaking, should be delivering...

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TBH i listen to Dean Felton more than anyone else on here because he talks sense and, more importantly, some of us may have dabbled but he's done it. He knows whats what

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12 hours ago, ouch said:

Cook (until recently), Fricke, Tungate and Drozdz so that’s more than half the team only ride for one team in the UK yet the decline continues. 

Its doing my head in reading this thread as it’s going round and round rather, I suspect like a BSPA meeting. Everyone of you make good valid points but they are pretty much equal in respect to the decline of speedway. Stop trying to make out one is vastly more important than the other. 

Its like arguing over what caused the hole in the boat as it sinks. 

It's not compulsory to keep reading if it's doing your head in,chill it's forum.What the thread shows is a lot of fans have similar views on the decline,but the people that matter don't seem too think so.Its about opinions !

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