German GP Teterow Saturday September 22nd

[BWitcher 12,453]

27 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I would say though Witcher forget averages formats (ect)  those riders rode in a era that was a far higher standard that Tai has ever rode in over here.As Ove pointed out  Tai has never really been pushed in the Uk what i would say is Tai has rode in a mega tough Polish league for years My point is the old British league  was of a high standard  everyweek tough different tracks different challenges  at one time it was the BEST.

Over 'here' is irrelevant

Tai rides in Sweden and Poland. Both of which are a far higher standard than any of those riders rode in.

You cannot 'forget' averages and formats as they are everything. The bigger the league the more 'star' riders there are. The ability of the rider in question doesn't change. That's before we get onto the fact there were no races such as Heat 13 and 15 where the top 2 raced each other and beat each other thus lowering their averages and making them seem a lot more beatable.

Take the riders in the 70's, place them in the leagues and formats of today and you wouldn't rate 90% of them anywhere near as highly. 

 

[chunky 6,089]

33 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I would say though Witcher forget averages formats (ect)  those riders rode in a era that was a far higher standard that Tai has ever rode in over here.

Of course, we know that the BL has been watered down, but when you try to judge someone's ability, can we actually PROVE the standard was higher back then? We all like to think so, but that is based on what?

Just because the "Big Five" stood out against the rest doesn't mean that the rest were poor. Just because riders like Betts and Ashby struggled to get past the British final on a consistent basis doesn't actually mean it was "stronger". You can only compare riders against the others they actually rode against. Could it be that the standard modern speedway is actually BETTER than it has ever been? It certainly seems a more level playing field, but that doesn't mean that riders aren't as good these days.

I know many will hate me for this, but could Woffinden, Zmarzlik, Janowski, Lindgren, Doyle etc be true equivalents of Briggs, Moore, Craven, Fundin, Knutson etc? Could they actually be better? Nobody can answer that with any certainty, however much you think you can. All we know is that there were more riders back then, but you simply cannot say who were better.

Steve

[BWitcher 12,453]

8 minutes ago, chunky said:

Of course, we know that the BL has been watered down, but when you try to judge someone's ability, can we actually PROVE the standard was higher back then? We all like to think so, but that is based on what?

Just because the "Big Five" stood out against the rest doesn't mean that the rest were poor. Just because riders like Betts and Ashby struggled to get past the British final on a consistent basis doesn't actually mean it was "stronger". You can only compare riders against the others they actually rode against. Could it be that the standard modern speedway is actually BETTER than it has ever been? It certainly seems a more level playing field, but that doesn't mean that riders aren't as good these days.

I know many will hate me for this, but could Woffinden, Zmarzlik, Janowski, Lindgren, Doyle etc be true equivalents of Briggs, Moore, Craven, Fundin, Knutson etc? Could they actually be better? Nobody can answer that with any certainty, however much you think you can. All we know is that there were more riders back then, but you simply cannot say who were better.

Steve

Spot on Chunky.

Sidney likes to say 'forget averages'. It's a ridiculous statement. Your entire perception of how good a rider is quite simply is based upon how often you see him win. In a big league, with a format where the big guns don't race that often in a meeting and lower end of sides that weren't all that great it wasn't often you saw many, many riders get beat. 

A different race format and a few less teams in the division and suddenly those 2nd and 3rd heat leaders (and some of the no 1's) start getting beat on a much more regular basis, running regular last places towards end of meetings and their air of invincibility is gone and your whole perception of how 'good' they are changes.

Edited September 25, 2018 by BWitcher

[OveFundinFan 4,138]

25 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Over 'here' is irrelevant

Tai rides in Sweden and Poland. Both of which are a far higher standard than any of those riders rode in.

You cannot 'forget' averages and formats as they are everything. The bigger the league the more 'star' riders there are. The ability of the rider in question doesn't change. That's before we get onto the fact there were no races such as Heat 13 and 15 where the top 2 raced each other and beat each other thus lowering their averages and making them seem a lot more beatable.

Take the riders in the 70's, place them in the leagues and formats of today and you wouldn't rate 90% of them anywhere near as highly. 

 

But that is only your opinion, and you cant prove what you say is right (or wrong).  That's why I am just cherishing what I have seen through the years, cant really say who is the best ever GB champion, just as I cant say who is the best ever in the world. We all may have an opinion, fine, but none of us can compare across generations of speedway racing.

If someone says Woffy is best GB rider ever, then that's fine. I may say Peter Collins is, but not everyone will agree. Fine. I would imagine there are not many on BSF, or anywhere, who have clear memories of, say, the early fifties champions, Tommy Price, Freddie Williams, Jack Biggs etc so very difficult to bring anyone of that generation (and before) into the equation.  Who is the best will always be in our minds, and not reality.

[BWitcher 12,453]

4 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

But that is only your opinion, and you cant prove what you say is right (or wrong).  That's why I am just cherishing what I have seen through the years, cant really say who is the best ever GB champion, just as I cant say who is the best ever in the world. We all may have an opinion, fine, but none of us can compare across generations of speedway racing.

If someone says Woffy is best GB rider ever, then that's fine. I may say Peter Collins is, but not everyone will agree. Fine. I would imagine there are not many on BSF, or anywhere, who have clear memories of, say, the early fifties champions, Tommy Price, Freddie Williams, Jack Biggs etc so very difficult to bring anyone of that generation (and before) into the equation.  Who is the best will always be in our minds, and not reality.

It isn't an opinion. It is absolute fact.

The 30th best rider in the 70's would be averaging 8.5+

The 30th best rider in Poland for example is around 6.5.

Hence the bigger the league, the more 'stars' it appears to have. That is indisputable.

Edited September 25, 2018 by BWitcher

[Grand Central 2,654]

22 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

It isn't an opinion. It is absolute fact.

The 30th best rider in the 70's would be averaging 8.5+

The 30th best rider in Poland for example is around 6.5.

Hence the bigger the league, the more 'stars' it appears to have. That is indisputable.

This is SO beyond question.

Why can't some people get it?

Edited September 25, 2018 by Grand Central

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

22 minutes ago, Grand Central said:

This is SO beyond question.

Why can't some people get it?

All i know is most teams in the BL had an in/out number 1 and usually two good heat leaders as well put averages to one side for a moment..Belle Vue ( 1972 )Mauger Collins Sjosten Pusey we saw them our own eye told us that they were good riders.Also go back to the British Finals with the Aussies/ New Zealander's in  mega line ups  your instinct told you they were good riders the level was high.Chunky is SPOT on though and he could well be right nobody can prove it my take on it is go on your own instinct and experience and decide that way.

[BWitcher 12,453]

13 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

All i know is most teams in the BL had an in/out number 1 and usually two good heat leaders as well put averages to one side for a moment..Belle Vue ( 1972 )Mauger Collins Sjosten Pusey we saw them our own eye told us that they were good riders.Also go back to the British Finals with the Aussies/ New Zealander's in  mega line ups  your instinct told you they were good riders the level was high.Chunky is SPOT on though and he could well be right nobody can prove it my take on it is go on your own instinct and experience and decide that way.

Oh jesus.

Of course they had a No 1 and two good heat leaders.  What made them a No 1 and heat leaders.. ah yes, their average. So no, you can't 'put their averages to one side for a moment'.

Change the heat format in the 70's to 15 heats.. All of a sudden over half of those out and out No 1's suddenly aren't so good anymore. Knock bonus pts of their average and they're even lower. Meanwhile those 2nd heat leaders have dropped down even further.

Combine the top 70 or so riders into a ten team league and those 'good 3rd heat leaders' are now bog standard 2nd strings, bordering on reserves and don't ever get remembered the way they are now.

Your instinct told you nothing. You thought they were good because you didn't see them lose very often.

Hence when it came to the British Final, it was usually the same small crop of riders who contested the top places most years.. because the others were far lower than them than their league figures actually showed.

 

[chunky 6,089]

1 hour ago, Grand Central said:

This is SO beyond question.

Why can't some people get it?

Because they don't want to...

Steve

[BWitcher 12,453]

1 hour ago, Grand Central said:

This is SO beyond question.

Why can't some people get it?

Because the fabric of many of their arguments completely collapses

[chunky 6,089]

7 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Hence when it came to the British Final, it was usually the same small crop of riders who contested the top places most years.. because the others were far lower than them than their league figures actually showed.

Again, you can only make comparisons between riders who rode against each other, and not somebody from different eras who were both No.4 in their respective teams.

One comment has always stuck with me... Back in the 70's, I had someone complaining that Larry Ross was the "worst No. 1 in the league". Really? Is that HIS fault that nobody else in the team was riding better? Had he been fourth in the Wimbledon averages, they would have been celebrating the fact that he was the "best No. 4 in the league"!

You get my point? It is all relative...

Steve

[MARK246 243]

It is impossible to compare different eras, I followed Martin Ashby and Swindon up and down the country in 70s. I wouldn't cross the road to watch Woffinden, judging by the crowd sizes neither will anyone else. That's the only statistics that matter, watchable or blah.

[BWitcher 12,453]

17 minutes ago, MARK246 said:

It is impossible to compare different eras, I followed Martin Ashby and Swindon up and down the country in 70s. I wouldn't cross the road to watch Woffinden, judging by the crowd sizes neither will anyone else. That's the only statistics that matter, watchable or blah.

Probably the most worthless contribution so far to the debate.

Although if you want to go down that route, Woffinden is watched by bigger crowds in the leagues he rides in than Ashby ever was. 

And again, had Ashby been riding in a different format he wouldn't have been anywhere near the hero he was.

Edited September 25, 2018 by BWitcher

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

1 hour ago, BWitcher said:

Probably the most worthless contribution so far to the debate.

Although if you want to go down that route, Woffinden is watched by bigger crowds in the leagues he rides in than Ashby ever was. 

And again, had Ashby been riding in a different format he wouldn't have been anywhere near the hero he was.

Total rubbish from someone who probably did not see him ride and that comment is insulting to Ashby honestly to TRY to win a debate you don't half scrape the barrel.By the way another one for you to try to talk down Penhall,Gundersen, Grahame,Collins CRADLEY did those four have inflated averages ???? ( only 2 future champs in there) why don't you ask Peter Adams how good those four were.!!!!

Edited September 25, 2018 by Sidney the robin

[BWitcher 12,453]

18 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Total rubbish from someone who probably did not see him ride and that comment is insulting to Ashby honestly to TRY to win a debate you don't half scrape the barrel.By the way another one for you to try to talk down Penhall,Gundersen, Grahame,Collins CRADLEY did those four have inflated averages ???? ( only 2 future champs in there) why don't you ask Peter Adams how good those four were.!!!!

Nothing to do with total rubbish Sidney.

It is stone cold fact.

I'm not trying to win the debate... it isn't even a debate. You don't debate something that is set in stone.

The post I replied too was nonsense. A Swindon fan saying he travelled the country to watch Martin Ashby but wouldn't watch Woffinden. Really? What a surprise. Now had Woffinden plied his trade for Swindon for ten years he would have quite a different attitude. It has zero relevance to the ability of either rider.

Ashby was a legend for Swindon, no doubt. But he was still quite a bit below the level of the big guns of the day. Whilst he was sporting averages of around 10-10.2... Ivan Mauger would be 11+.

Under today's format, the real top guys averages would still stay strong as they beat the vast majority of other riders. Riders such as Ashby begin to tumble as they come up against the Maugers of the league more often.. and lose more often. He'd be around 8.5 to 9pt at best.