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German GP Teterow Saturday September 22nd

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3 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

 

 

4 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

 


The post I replied too was nonsense. A Swindon fan saying he travelled the country to watch Martin Ashby but wouldn't watch Woffinden. Really? What a surprise. Now had Woffinden plied his trade for Swindon for ten years he would have quite a different attitude. It has zero relevance to the ability of either rider.

Ashby was a legend for Swindon, no doubt. But he was still quite a bit below the level of the big guns of the day. Whilst he was sporting averages of around 10-10.2... Ivan Mauger would be 11+.


 

 

 

Ashby was in the top ten averages 1972/73/74 and 76 irrelevant of format the top ten would stay the same, even if the totals reduced. 

I have been to race meetings, some riders create a buzz of anticipation, Woffinden doesn't, Ashby always did.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, MARK246 said:

 

Ashby was in the top ten averages 1972/73/74 and 76 irrelevant of format the top ten would stay the same, even if the totals reduced. 

I have been to race meetings, some riders create a buzz of anticipation, Woffinden doesn't, Ashby always did.

 

 

Completely disagree that Woffinden doesn't create a buzz of anticipation. Crowds increased when he rode for Wolves in 2016 for a short spell, both at home and away.

The reason the top 10-15 riders were so anticipated in the 70's was because you didn't see them so often.. and most importantly you rarely saw them get beat.. so they had much more of a god like status.

If you're seeing them 3-4 times a season, plus regularly on TV and in Grand Prixs AND you're seeing them get beat far, far more often, they haven't got that mystique around them.
 

Edited to add: It's a good argument for a 'bigger league'. A bigger league creates more heat leaders, creates more 'out and out' no 1's and creates more 'stars'. So the effects you talk about can over time be replicated.

Incidentally.. the THIRD highest averaging rider in the BL of today is 8.13. So I was over estimating Ashby by some distance. He'd be a 7.5 guy in this format and certainly wouldn't be creating any kind of 'buzz'. That's the massive difference league size and heat formats can make.

Edited by BWitcher

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I would guess most people here could name the teams no1 during the gulf oil british league. riders did create buzz and interest, for me Olsen...seeing people like chris pusey, soen sjosten just once a year was a reason to get to the track...for me, I cant be done with rider sharing, we all different, I even preferred 13 heat format,..it worked, rules were kept too, more than today. we all different

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3 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Completely disagree that Woffinden doesn't create a buzz of anticipation. Crowds increased when he rode for Wolves in 2016 for a short spell, both at home and away.

The reason the top 10-15 riders were so anticipated in the 70's was because you didn't see them so often.. and most importantly you rarely saw them get beat.. so they had much more of a god like status.

If you're seeing them 3-4 times a season, plus regularly on TV and in Grand Prixs AND you're seeing them get beat far, far more often, they haven't got that mystique around them.
 

Edited to add: It's a good argument for a 'bigger league'. A bigger league creates more heat leaders, creates more 'out and out' no 1's and creates more 'stars'. So the effects you talk about can over time be replicated.

Incidentally.. the THIRD highest averaging rider in the BL of today is 8.13. So I was over estimating Ashby by some distance. He'd be a 7.5 guy in this format and certainly wouldn't be creating any kind of 'buzz'. That's the massive difference league size and heat formats can make.

I'm not sure if you're deliberately trying to be provocative, but no way would Martin Ashby be a 7.5 man. He was out and out number one for many years. He'd easily get above 8 using the current format, which is where number ones are mainly.

Whatever the format, he'd still have been the number one. 

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44 minutes ago, Grachan said:

I'm not sure if you're deliberately trying to be provocative, but no way would Martin Ashby be a 7.5 man. He was out and out number one for many years. He'd easily get above 8 using the current format, which is where number ones are mainly.

Whatever the format, he'd still have been the number one. 

Another not grasping it.

The THIRD highest averaging rider in the top flight this season is 8.13.

And no there's a good chance he wouldn't be a Number one. If he's 10th in the averages, in a 7 team league...  or even an 8 team league there's a good chance he won't be at No 1. 

However, we'll go with getting above 8.... tell me, who gets remembered as being 'great', someone you've watched for years averaging 10+ or someone averaging above 8-8.5. The first one has an awe, a mystique about them.. the second one... doesn't.

Edited by BWitcher

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5 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Another not grasping it.

The THIRD highest averaging rider in the top flight this season is 8.13.

And no there's a good chance he wouldn't be a Number one. If he's 10th in the averages, in a 7 team league...  or even an 8 team league there's a good chance he won't be at No 1. 

However, we'll go with getting above 8.... tell me, who gets remembered as being 'great', someone you've watched for years averaging 10+ or someone averaging above 8-8.5. The first one has an awe, a mystique about them.. the second one... doesn't.

Don't forget the idea this season as a rider, is to stay below an 8 point average. Otherwise you could be unemployable in 2019.

The restrictions on average limits were not so much of a problem in the 70s. Which meant the top riders were free to score what they wanted, not what they are told to score, like now.

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2 minutes ago, MARK246 said:

Don't forget the idea this season as a rider, is to stay below an 8 point average. Otherwise you could be unemployable in 2019.

The restrictions on average limits were not so much of a problem in the 70s. Which meant the top riders were free to score what they wanted, not what they are told to score, like now.

True, until rider control whisked them away.

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46 minutes ago, MARK246 said:

Don't forget the idea this season as a rider, is to stay below an 8 point average. Otherwise you could be unemployable in 2019.

The restrictions on average limits were not so much of a problem in the 70s. Which meant the top riders were free to score what they wanted, not what they are told to score, like now.

Barely relevant.

In the 70's for example, Ashby might race Mauger twice in a season. Once at home, once away (putting aside tacs for the moment). In a set up as it is now, he'd be racing him 12 times. Take the same with the 2nd and 3rd best riders in the league and so on... the difference to the average soon builds up.

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1 hour ago, BWitcher said:

Another not grasping it.

The THIRD highest averaging rider in the top flight this season is 8.13.

And no there's a good chance he wouldn't be a Number one. If he's 10th in the averages, in a 7 team league...  or even an 8 team league there's a good chance he won't be at No 1. 

However, we'll go with getting above 8.... tell me, who gets remembered as being 'great', someone you've watched for years averaging 10+ or someone averaging above 8-8.5. The first one has an awe, a mystique about them.. the second one... doesn't.

Well, I guess it depends on what level you are setting the riders in the league. With a league of the strength of the league today he'd be a number one.

Of course, if you are just taking the top riders in the World and fitting them into 7 teams from the top downwards, then maybe he would be a 7 point rider. But that is not today's format.

I would say that the only person better than Martin Ashby was who is in the league at the moment is Jason Doyle.

And riders nowadays do, I believe, ride conservatively sometimes to ensure their averages stay lower.

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3 minutes ago, Grachan said:

Well, I guess it depends on what level you are setting the riders in the league. With a league of the strength of the league today he'd be a number one.

Of course, if you are just taking the top riders in the World and fitting them into 7 teams from the top downwards, then maybe he would be a 7 point rider. But that is not today's format.

I would say that the only person better than Martin Ashby was who is in the league at the moment is Jason Doyle.

And riders nowadays do, I believe, ride conservatively sometimes to ensure their averages stay lower.

The standard of riders in the league at the moment isn't relevant. That's an impossible debate. A 6pt rider now could be better than a 10pt rider of the 70's and vice versa (although far less likely in the second scenario). We can never prove that one way or another. 

The point is simple. The 10th best rider in the league in a large league in a 13 heat format appears a hell of a lot better than the same rider in a smaller league with a 15 heat format.

If we look at Poland, perhaps the best comparison in terms of 'strength' of rider, the 10th averaging rider is about 8.5. Again, not something that sets the pulse racing when that rider comes to town. Not sure how many times the top riders face each other in the Polish heat format?

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26 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

The standard of riders in the league at the moment isn't relevant. That's an impossible debate. A 6pt rider now could be better than a 10pt rider of the 70's and vice versa (although far less likely in the second scenario). We can never prove that one way or another. 

The point is simple. The 10th best rider in the league in a large league in a 13 heat format appears a hell of a lot better than the same rider in a smaller league with a 15 heat format.

If we look at Poland, perhaps the best comparison in terms of 'strength' of rider, the 10th averaging rider is about 8.5. Again, not something that sets the pulse racing when that rider comes to town. Not sure how many times the top riders face each other in the Polish heat format?

I think you need to clarify your argument.

Are you putting Martin Ashby in a league the strength of today's league, with hardly any of the World's top riders involved, and which was set up using second division averages?

Are you using the same teams as in the 1970's, but using today's race format?

Are you having 7 teams using the top 49 riders in the World?

It depends what comparison you are using.

If you are putting a rider the standard of Martin Ashby in a league of today's GB standard, then he is a number one. If you are putting a rider of his standard in a league of 7 teams using the best 49 riders in the World then he'd be a second or third heatleader, or possibly even a second string.

It depends on which scenario you are using.

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The only valid comparison.

You don't change the riders involved, simply the league size and heat format. 

My point is simply, the bigger the league the more 'stars' you have. Especially in a 13 heat format.

Hence in the 70's you had a lot more 'star' riders who had that mystique about them because you rarely saw them get beat.

When it actually came down to it though, you still had a select few who were above the others as you do in every era.

Edited by BWitcher

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12 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Spot on Chunky.

Sidney likes to say 'forget averages'. It's a ridiculous statement. Your entire perception of how good a rider is quite simply is based upon how often you see him win. In a big league, with a format where the big guns don't race that often in a meeting and lower end of sides that weren't all that great it wasn't often you saw many, many riders get beat. 

A different race format and a few less teams in the division and suddenly those 2nd and 3rd heat leaders (and some of the no 1's) start getting beat on a much more regular basis, running regular last places towards end of meetings and their air of invincibility is gone and your whole perception of how 'good' they are changes.

Hi all, I'm quite the lurker on here, so please be gentle...........

Reading what you have posted has made me think about averages...... I'm not disputing what you have said at all, and this post is more for discussion than argument (for want of a better word), however.........

To my thinking, (and I'm happy to accept I may be being niave about it), averages are a finite number, in the sense that in a heat, some wins, someone comes last...... for that heat the winner has an average (I know, not strictly true, nothing 'average' about it) of 12.00, the person finishing last 0.00

Here's where it goes a bit hypothetical, (but bear with me, because I do bring it back to a point) but let's say next year, 14 of the GP riders are picked into 2 teams, and go racing around the the country once a week at various tracks, in an exhibition type league......... it would be possible that at the end of the season, 20 meetings on, someone could have anaverage of 0.00.....last in every heat....... he'd look terrible on paper, yet in reality he'd be one of the best riders in the world....... and in 50 years time, when our grandchildren look back, all they would see would be the 0.00 average..... they would look down their nose at said rider........

Not sure if my point is coming through, hope you understand what I am trying to say...... and it's not meant as an argument,  just a thought, I'm defo not disagreeing with your point

On a side note, as I was working a nightshift last Saturday, and 'watched' the GP on updates, I've only caught up with the programme today........ for those who say Tai isn't British, he sure looked British on the podium showing off his Union Jack on his race suit...... I love the bloke

 

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7 hours ago, JC71 said:

Hi all, I'm quite the lurker on here, so please be gentle...........

Reading what you have posted has made me think about averages...... I'm not disputing what you have said at all, and this post is more for discussion than argument (for want of a better word), however.........

To my thinking, (and I'm happy to accept I may be being niave about it), averages are a finite number, in the sense that in a heat, some wins, someone comes last...... for that heat the winner has an average (I know, not strictly true, nothing 'average' about it) of 12.00, the person finishing last 0.00

Here's where it goes a bit hypothetical, (but bear with me, because I do bring it back to a point) but let's say next year, 14 of the GP riders are picked into 2 teams, and go racing around the the country once a week at various tracks, in an exhibition type league......... it would be possible that at the end of the season, 20 meetings on, someone could have anaverage of 0.00.....last in every heat....... he'd look terrible on paper, yet in reality he'd be one of the best riders in the world....... and in 50 years time, when our grandchildren look back, all they would see would be the 0.00 average..... they would look down their nose at said rider........

Not sure if my point is coming through, hope you understand what I am trying to say...... and it's not meant as an argument,  just a thought, I'm defo not disagreeing with your point

On a side note, as I was working a nightshift last Saturday, and 'watched' the GP on updates, I've only caught up with the programme today........ for those who say Tai isn't British, he sure looked British on the podium showing off his Union Jack on his race suit...... I love the bloke

 

No need to be apologetic at all.
You have got the point well  and used a good hypothetical analogy to express it.

I offer no hope that this will be understood by the same old faces who have been spouting their nonsense for years.

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9 hours ago, JC71 said:

Hi all, I'm quite the lurker on here, so please be gentle...........

Reading what you have posted has made me think about averages...... I'm not disputing what you have said at all, and this post is more for discussion than argument (for want of a better word), however.........

To my thinking, (and I'm happy to accept I may be being niave about it), averages are a finite number, in the sense that in a heat, some wins, someone comes last...... for that heat the winner has an average (I know, not strictly true, nothing 'average' about it) of 12.00, the person finishing last 0.00

Here's where it goes a bit hypothetical, (but bear with me, because I do bring it back to a point) but let's say next year, 14 of the GP riders are picked into 2 teams, and go racing around the the country once a week at various tracks, in an exhibition type league......... it would be possible that at the end of the season, 20 meetings on, someone could have anaverage of 0.00.....last in every heat....... he'd look terrible on paper, yet in reality he'd be one of the best riders in the world....... and in 50 years time, when our grandchildren look back, all they would see would be the 0.00 average..... they would look down their nose at said rider........

Not sure if my point is coming through, hope you understand what I am trying to say...... and it's not meant as an argument,  just a thought, I'm defo not disagreeing with your point

On a side note, as I was working a nightshift last Saturday, and 'watched' the GP on updates, I've only caught up with the programme today........ for those who say Tai isn't British, he sure looked British on the podium showing off his Union Jack on his race suit...... I love the bloke

 

You've got it spot on. 

In a similar fashion it's why riders like Andy Smith, Chris Harris and now Craig Cook have been mocked over the years as being rubbish because they struggled in the GP's.

Someone who just watches GP speedway on TV and has no knowledge of league racing would really think they were awful!

Edited by BWitcher
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