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I've just checked the records of the various leagues that Newcastle have been in since I started watching in 1964 , in 1965 the First Year of the British League

there were 18 teams taking part, increasing to 19 the following year, when we re-opened in 1975 in the New National League there were 20 teams taking part that year.

So I don't think I exaggerated too much with my memory of 21 Teams at one time in the distant past.

Edited by scampispeedway
Altering the wording in my post to read clearer.
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3 hours ago, scampispeedway said:

I've just checked the records of the various leagues that Newcastle have been in since I started watching in 1964 , in 1965 the First Year of the British League

there were 18 teams taking part, increasing to 19 the following year, when we re-opened in 1975 in the New National League there were 20 teams taking part that year.

So I don't think I exaggerated too much with my memory of 21 Teams at one time in the distant past.

I particularly specified  the Premier League that being the most recent league to compare with.

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16 hours ago, Tsunami said:

Slight exaggeration with 21 teams as the Premier League as was was always self limited to 16 teams maximum. You are right though at the sort of season that was the norm in those days. 14/15 home league meetings, 4 League Cup Qualifies, a KC meeting or 2 or 3, at least one open challenge starter and a 4TT qualifier resulting in a home season of about 25 meetings. Some fitting in that meaning the pressure was on to get the season underway in the third week in March sometimes with snow?ice in the track 

Premier League season of 2003 had 18 teams in it. Sadly, it's all been downhill since then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Premier_League_speedway_season

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I never mentioned the Premier League at all, my posting was a general one not about the Premier League and the New National League eventually became the P.L.

whilst the British League was renamed to the Elite League.

The reason for my comments compared what I remembered that the meetings still went ahead if at all possible but recent weather is so much worse now over a longer

period and some clubs might have problems completing all their home league meetings 

Edited by scampispeedway
Altering the wording in my post to read clearer.

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On 8/13/2019 at 2:16 PM, scampispeedway said:

I remember a time when Newcastle ran every week from at least the start of April until the end of September because there were 21 teams

in the league, along with 4 team qualifying meetings and K.O. cup and other friendly meetings that were needed to be run.

With the number of matches home and away now being cancelled due to rain, I can see even with only 11 clubs running that some league

matches may not be able to take place.

Great seasons back then

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15 hours ago, JCookie said:

Premier League season of 2003 had 18 teams in it. Sadly, it's all been downhill since then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Premier_League_speedway_season

Was about to say I remember 18 teams in 03. 

The British league was even in declines there then and both leagues were much stronger back then. 

Of course a few of the usuals will insist the second tier is now stronger than ever ... lol. Can you imagine the likes of Toft and Jorgensen as second heatleaders back in the days of teams having heatleader trios such as Smart, Watson and Iversen etc? Lol. 

BOTH the top and second tiers are absolutely nowhere near as strong as they once were .

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1 hour ago, Pinny said:

Was about to say I remember 18 teams in 03. 

The British league was even in declines there then and both leagues were much stronger back then. 

Of course a few of the usuals will insist the second tier is now stronger than ever ... lol. Can you imagine the likes of Toft and Jorgensen as second heatleaders back in the days of teams having heatleader trios such as Smart, Watson and Iversen etc? Lol. 

BOTH the top and second tiers are absolutely nowhere near as strong as they once were .

Compared to Chris Harris, Nick Morris and Rory Schlein the trio you've quoted are extremely weak. 

Watson had a couple of decent seasons in a much larger league which of course inflates your average. Was a 5pter at best in top division, again in larger league.

Smart wasn't even as good as that. 8.39 in 2003, including bonus pts in an 18 team league? That's nothing special at all.

Iversen was a long way of being the rider he now is. Again 9.13 including bonus in an 18 team league, nothing that great.

 

Edited by BWitcher

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2 hours ago, Pinny said:

Was about to say I remember 18 teams in 03. 

The British league was even in declines there then and both leagues were much stronger back then. 

Of course a few of the usuals will insist the second tier is now stronger than ever ... lol. Can you imagine the likes of Toft and Jorgensen as second heatleaders back in the days of teams having heatleader trios such as Smart, Watson and Iversen etc? Lol. 

BOTH the top and second tiers are absolutely nowhere near as strong as they once were .

45 point limit back then as well...

 

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1 hour ago, BWitcher said:

RCompared to Chris Harris, Nick Morris and Rory Schlein the trio you've quoted are extremely weak. 

Watson had a couple of decent seasons in a much larger league which of course inflates your average. Was a 5pter at best in top division, again in larger league.

Smart wasn't even as good as that. 8.39 in 2003, including bonus pts in an 18 team league? That's nothing special at all.

Iversen was a long way of being the rider he now is. Again 9.13 including bonus in an 18 team league, nothing that great.

 

You talk some garbage at times but youll obviously think your correct as usual however your not. 

Back in 03 and other years , heatleaders faced actual heatleaders in every race.  For instance in 2003 , our number 5 Watson would face Zagar , Harris and Sanchez and then Zagar and Harris in heat 13 . And then the nominated race . 

You cannot seriously tell me most riders riding as “heatleaders” now would of averaged the same or more than heatleaders 15 years ago?

Can you honestly say Thomas Jorgensen would of averaged 8 amongst the likes of Wilson, Stoney, Schott, Watson, Thorp, Harris, Coles etc ..... ? 

Most top PL riders whod make the full time transition to EL would only average around 5 in their debut seasons... Watson only rode one and a bit full time then dropped back down . His prime PL days were better than Scheiln has ever acheived in the same league.  2004 I think was his best PL year individually . 

The second tier now is pathetically weak compared to years gone by , I watched Pl racing every week from 99 to 2011 and the product , like the EL, was diluted year on year . 

Just looking at the updates sites , generally race times are the same now as they were in 2005. So in nearly 15 years , with most tracks becoming slicker and engines being tuned to a much better standard , times are still the same ? Why arent these better second tier riders hammering in much better race times than riders were 15 years ago? 

You take the top 15 averaged riders from a random year 15 ish years ago and compare them to the top 15 now, try telling me the current top 15 is better . If you do, your lying . 

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1 hour ago, BWitcher said:

RCompared to Chris Harris, Nick Morris and Rory Schlein the trio you've quoted are extremely weak. 

Watson had a couple of decent seasons in a much larger league which of course inflates your average. Was a 5pter at best in top division, again in larger league.

Smart wasn't even as good as that. 8.39 in 2003, including bonus pts in an 18 team league? That's nothing special at all.

Iversen was a long way of being the rider he now is. Again 9.13 including bonus in an 18 team league, nothing that great.

 

You talk some garbage at times but youll obviously think your correct as usual however your not. 

Back in 03 and other years , heatleaders faced actual heatleaders in every race.  For instance in 2003 , our number 5 Watson would face Zagar , Harris and Sanchez and then Zagar and Harris in heat 13 . And then the nominated race . 

You cannot seriously tell me most riders riding as “heatleaders” now would of averaged the same or more than heatleaders 15 years ago?

Can you honestly say Thomas Jorgensen would of averaged 8 amongst the likes of Wilson, Stoney, Schott, Watson, Thorp, Harris, Coles etc ..... ? 

Most top PL riders whod make the full time transition to EL would only average around 5 in their debut seasons... Watson only rode one and a bit full time then dropped back down . His prime PL days were better than Scheiln has ever acheived in the same league.  2004 I think was his best PL year individually . 

The second tier now is pathetically weak compared to years gone by , I watched Pl racing every week from 99 to 2011 and the product , like the EL, was diluted year on year . 

Just looking at the updates sites , generally race times are the same now as they were in 2005. So in nearly 15 years , with most tracks becoming slicker and engines being tuned to a much better standard , times are still the same ? Why arent these better second tier riders hammering in much better race times than riders were 15 years ago? 

You take the top 15 averaged riders from a random year 15 ish years ago and compare them to the top 15 now, try telling me the current top 15 is better . If you do, your lying . 

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4 hours ago, Pinny said:

You talk some garbage at times but youll obviously think your correct as usual however your not. 

Back in 03 and other years , heatleaders faced actual heatleaders in every race.  For instance in 2003 , our number 5 Watson would face Zagar , Harris and Sanchez and then Zagar and Harris in heat 13 . And then the nominated race . 

You cannot seriously tell me most riders riding as “heatleaders” now would of averaged the same or more than heatleaders 15 years ago?

Can you honestly say Thomas Jorgensen would of averaged 8 amongst the likes of Wilson, Stoney, Schott, Watson, Thorp, Harris, Coles etc ..... ? 

Most top PL riders whod make the full time transition to EL would only average around 5 in their debut seasons... Watson only rode one and a bit full time then dropped back down . His prime PL days were better than Scheiln has ever acheived in the same league.  2004 I think was his best PL year individually . 

The second tier now is pathetically weak compared to years gone by , I watched Pl racing every week from 99 to 2011 and the product , like the EL, was diluted year on year . 

Just looking at the updates sites , generally race times are the same now as they were in 2005. So in nearly 15 years , with most tracks becoming slicker and engines being tuned to a much better standard , times are still the same ? Why arent these better second tier riders hammering in much better race times than riders were 15 years ago? 

You take the top 15 averaged riders from a random year 15 ish years ago and compare them to the top 15 now, try telling me the current top 15 is better . If you do, your lying . 

The bigger the league, the more heat leaders there are and the higher they will average.

That is indisputable maths.

I said nothing about the overall strength just pointed out your chosen heat leader trio did not prove your point as they are nowhere near as strong as Harris, Nick Morris and Rory Schlein.

Edited by BWitcher

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30 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

The bigger the league, the more heat leaders there are and the higher they will average.

That is indisputable maths.

I said nothing about the overall strength just pointed out your chosen heat leader trio did not prove your point as they are nowhere near as strong as Harris, Nick Morris and Rory Schlein.

It was extremely rare for anyone to hit their assessed figures of 9.00 back in those days , i think Iversen was one of the only ones i seen do it along with Bjarne Pedersen and Zagar . 

Watson was even better and Smart was probably having his best ever season in the Uk That year until he was wiped out on turn 4 heat 1 against Glasgow on the eve of the GP.

there are obviously stronger heatleader trios from that season , Zagar , Harris and Ondrasik for Trelawny , Stead , Stoney and Karlsson for Workington , Gjedde, Allen and Fry for Swindon etc.... 

the strength of the second tier back then was a lot stronger than these days . 

Id rather , at their form in 03 (Newport) vs the Somerset trio now , Iversen , Watson and Smart over Morris, Harris and Scheiln any day of the week. Espiecially before Smarts crash when he was averaging more than Watson and Iversen... Watson was third in the averages that year at the time and wasnt allowed to ride in the pairs at Workington , which Smart and Iversen were second.

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Used to luv watching frank smart fighting with his bike a real showman racer, modern day riders dont come close to those guys, used to look forward to seeing carr, wilson , watson, stead, paul thorp sitting in an arm chair , gary stead riding his heart out, dont get me started on mal mackay lou sansom mile sampson , happy days.

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7 minutes ago, Pinny said:

It was extremely rare for anyone to hit their assessed figures of 9.00 back in those days , i think Iversen was one of the only ones i seen do it along with Bjarne Pedersen and Zagar . 

Watson was even better and Smart was probably having his best ever season in the Uk That year until he was wiped out on turn 4 heat 1 against Glasgow on the eve of the GP.

there are obviously stronger heatleader trios from that season , Zagar , Harris and Ondrasik for Trelawny , Stead , Stoney and Karlsson for Workington , Gjedde, Allen and Fry for Swindon etc.... 

the strength of the second tier back then was a lot stronger than these days . 

Id rather , at their form in 03 (Newport) vs the Somerset trio now , Iversen , Watson and Smart over Morris, Harris and Scheiln any day of the week. Espiecially before Smarts crash when he was averaging more than Watson and Iversen... Watson was third in the averages that year at the time and wasnt allowed to ride in the pairs at Workington , which Smart and Iversen were second.

You're judging riders on what they went on to achieve, not what they were doing then.

You cannot argue. An 18 team league produces 54 heat leaders. An 11 team league produces 33. The strength of the rider is irrelevant.

What assessed riders are hitting 9.00 now?

Watson and Smart would be 6.5-7.5 at best riders in the current size league. That's been proven over and over.

You cannot argue against Maths Pinny, give it up, you're out your depth.

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Assessed (top-ish) riders are coming in on a 7pt ass ave now rather than 9.00.  Does that not tell you something?

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