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cinderfella

Meaningful Second Halves anyone?

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9 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...and, of course, Malcolm Holloway. Kevin Young and Kevin Smart all graduated to Oxford's NL team (as well as the Chessell Brothers!)

Used to enjoy watching 'The Sprockets'. Throw in Steve Bishop and Terry Broadbank as well.

Sorry mate forgot the Chessell clan and Bish  and Terry who with a bit more luck could of pushed on.Brian Butterfield,Dave Main,Steve Goodwin all did well as well and all of those never had money that could of pushed them on.Going  back even farther Melvyn Soffe and Dave Patten both  were very capable and  the reserves jaunt  i.e. 1977   onwards    Young Holloway,Evans,Pope bring's back real memories great days.

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1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

Sorry mate forgot the Chessell clan and Bish  and Terry who with a bit more luck could of pushed on.Brian Butterfield,Dave Main,Steve Goodwin all did well as well and all of those never had money that could of pushed them on.Going  back even farther Melvyn Soffe and Dave Patten both  were very capable and  the reserves jaunt  i.e. 1977   onwards    Young Holloway,Evans,Pope bring's back real memories great days.

...Remember Melvyn Soffe second halving down at Weymouth and, if I'm correct, Kevin Pope was a regular in the second half at Reading's old Tilehurst track? Was Dave Patten from the Channel Islands? Recall Blacbird Leys lad, Ashely Pullen, riding in a second half at Weymouth whilst I was on holiday down there and he, of course, later signed for Rye House and eventually after a few years ended up at Oxford.

I've said it many times before but we at Cowley due to the promotional ties with both Eastbourne and Peterborough got to see many of their riders (Gordon Kennett,  Malcolm and Timmy Ballard, Bobby  McNeil, Roger Johns, Paul Gachet, Trevor Geer, Laurie Sims, Eric Dugard, John Davis, Richard Greer, Brian Clark,, Kevin Hawkins, Paul Tapp ext etc) during the second halves and they were certainly exciting and productive times with many of those riders going on to represent teams in the upper league...even got to see the fifteen year olds Colin Richardson, Michael Lee and much later Alistair Stevens performing during the interval.

We even witnessed grass track riders take to the track on their grass track bikes (Julian Wigg - who later turned out for 'The Rebels' - Chris and Alan Drewitt, Ken Matthews and a host of others). We certainly had variety down at Cowley...on one occasion we had a Tony Brooklister take to the track during a second half only to learn later that it was Colin Meredith riding incognito whilst having a trial and who later turned out for 'The Cheetahs'.

I have nothing but fond memories of the old second halves and I appreciate that people's expectations are somewhat different today but I wouldn't have wanted it anyway different during my formative years following speedway.

Great days!

Edited by steve roberts

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5 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...Remember Melvyn Soffe second halving down at Weymouth and, if I'm correct, Kevin Pope was a regular in the second half at Reading's old Tilehurst track? Was Dave Patten from the Channel Islands? Recall Blacbird Leys lad, Ashely Pullen, riding in a second half at Weymouth whilst I was on holiday down there and he, of course, later signed for Rye House and eventually after a few years ended up at Oxford.

I've said it many times before but we at Cowley due to the promotional ties with both Eastbourne and Peterborough got to see many of their riders (Gordon Kennett,  Malcolm and Timmy Ballard, Bobby  McNeil, Roger Johns, Paul Gachet, Trevor Geer, Laurie Sims, Eric Dugard, John Davis, Richard Greer, Brian Clark,, Kevin Hawkins, Paul Tapp ext etc) during the second halves and they were certainly exciting and productive times with many of those riders going on to represent teams in the upper league...even got to see the fifteen year olds Colin Richardson, Michael Lee and much later Alistair Stevens performing during the interval.

We even witnessed grass track riders take to the track on their grass track bikes (Julian Wigg - who later turned out for 'The Rebels' - Chris and Alan Drewitt, Ken Matthews and a host of others). We certainly had variety down at Cowley...on one occasion we had a Tony Brooklister take to the track during a second half only to learn later that it was Colin Meredith riding incognito whilst having a trial and who later turned out for 'The Cheetahs'.

Great days!

I can remember first seeing Ali Stevens and he was very talented young Paul Dugard and Jon Surman also give there alll never quite made it but we're able riders.Going back further for the rebels really liked Timmo,Dews, and Ulf Lovass who was the complete opposite to Dag.Pander ( only see once)  Genz ,and Gooddy were stalwarts and Middleton what can you say a class act who put bums on seats.

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During the war ..

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6 hours ago, orion said:

During the war ..

...when of course speedway ceased to run excepting meetings at Hyde Road and the question on everybody's lips is whether they included second halves? 

Edited by steve roberts

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17 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...that's how the likes of Julian and Simon Wigg, Ken Matthews etc got their opportunities as did countless others I would hazzard to guess? Certainly was the case at Cowley.

Yes. Going back to "my" day, the second half novice/junior races were where I first saw the likes of Roy Trigg, Barry Thomas, Dave Jessup and Malcolm Simmons. It was great to see them progress through these second halves, into the team and then on to even bigger things.

Is the fact we don't have these regular opportunities to race competitively in front of crowds to gain experience now, the reason we don't have as many up-and-coming riders as we did back in the 70s and 80s and don't have as many world class stars like we did back then as well?

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34 minutes ago, norbold said:

Yes. Going back to "my" day, the second half novice/junior races were where I first saw the likes of Roy Trigg, Barry Thomas, Dave Jessup and Malcolm Simmons. It was great to see them progress through these second halves, into the team and then on to even bigger things.

Is the fact we don't have these regular opportunities to race competitively in front of crowds to gain experience now, the reason we don't have as many up-and-coming riders as we did back in the 70s and 80s and don't have as many world class stars like we did back then as well?

...yes it always makes me smile when people condemn second halves in whatever shape or form but there was no denying that it did help to bring on British talent together with the advent of the old Second Division.

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1 hour ago, norbold said:

Yes. Going back to "my" day, the second half novice/junior races were where I first saw the likes of Roy Trigg, Barry Thomas, Dave Jessup and Malcolm Simmons. It was great to see them progress through these second halves, into the team and then on to even bigger things.

Is the fact we don't have these regular opportunities to race competitively in front of crowds to gain experience now, the reason we don't have as many up-and-coming riders as we did back in the 70s and 80s and don't have as many world class stars like we did back then as well?

How many riders did you see Norbold over the years that you first thought god they won't make it but improved week on week.Malcolm Holloway,Martin Hewlett ,Alun Rossiter, are three fine examples of riders that i never envisaged being good anough for a mega tough British division 1 but they learned quickly you had to it was brutal dog eat dog being thrown in with the likes of Ashby,Kilby,Crump.

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21 hours ago, topsoil said:

I would like to see every team run a junior team and have fixtures every week. Every team should enter into the NJL, MDL or SJL, even if it means adopting teams like Reading, Weymouth etc. This gives younger riders much more track time and lets them develop quicker. Would probably encourage more youngsters into the sport if they knew they were guaranteed more track time as well and would be a natural stepping stone into the National League. 

Unfortunately, these are often commercial suicide. You don't attract any new fans by running a junior team, but you do incur additional costs, so you are totally reliant on your main fans attending twice as many meetings. Coupled with that, if your senior team is doing poorly, fans can chose to only attend the junior team, so you are cannibalising your own customers, see Oxford in 2007 as an example.

Many teams have tried running both a senior team and a junior team (Swindon, Poole, King's Lynn, Lakeside, Rye House, Wolves (Cradley), Belle Vue, Coventry, Leicester) and yet only a handful continue to do so.

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10 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

How many riders did you see Norbold over the years that you first thought god they won't make it but improved week on week.Malcolm Holloway,Martin Hewlett ,Alun Rossiter, are three fine examples of riders that i never envisaged being good anough for a mega tough British division 1 but they learned quickly you had to it was brutal dog eat dog being thrown in with the likes of Ashby,Kilby,Crump.

I'm not sure I can think of any riders in that category, Sidney. What I can remember is that the first time I saw Roy Trigg and Dave Jessup, who was 15 years old and having his first-ever competitive ride, I thought they are going to be good. Funnily enough, Dave Jessup's first race was against another first timer, the 16 year old Barry Thomas, who actually won the race. But there was something about Jessup's style and determination that convinced me he was going to make it and was a better prospect than Thomas.

I suppose of those I mentioned, the least impressive at first sight was Malcolm Simmons, but even then, although maybe not showing signs of the great star he was to become, certainly showed the makings of a good team rider.

Edited by norbold
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I'm up for "second half" races to give juniors a chance of regular track time. And these juniors may well be "local" to the track, thus EXPENSES need not be high. No points money, just expenses to keep costs down.  Saw many juniors coming through the ranks at BV, even before Dent Oliver did the Rochdale team.in the early 70's.

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48 minutes ago, MattK said:

Unfortunately, these are often commercial suicide. You don't attract any new fans by running a junior team, but you do incur additional costs, so you are totally reliant on your main fans attending twice as many meetings. Coupled with that, if your senior team is doing poorly, fans can chose to only attend the junior team, so you are cannibalising your own customers, see Oxford in 2007 as an example.

Many teams have tried running both a senior team and a junior team (Swindon, Poole, King's Lynn, Lakeside, Rye House, Wolves (Cradley), Belle Vue, Coventry, Leicester) and yet only a handful continue to do so.

You are confusing second National League teams with Development League teams. At the moment, only Belle Vue do the former: I don't know how popular this is. However, plenty of teams have MDL/NJL/SDL teams, which run as 'second halves' after the main match. These don't incur any extra costs, as the riders are not paid, and the track staff  etc. are there anyway, and all other costs come under the main match.  DL teams are invaluable for riders to gain experience and skill before making the jump up to NL standard. Very few NL riders have come up any other way other than the Junior Speedway set up.

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20 hours ago, cityrebel said:

From a personal point of view, I've never liked 2nd halves. I used to watch them as a kid at Wembley and Wimbledon, but I found them boring. I'd like speedway to be like football, done and dusted in 90 minutes.

Even back in the day stadiums were half empty once the 2nd half started. Was part of the reason they were dropped along with rider's unwillingness. 

Don't think there's a better solution, there's nothing wrong with the current 15 heats.

The issue is the fluidity of the current system. People today demand more for their money. Needs to be none stop entertainment from start to finish.

What is needed is a GP style format.

From heat 1, 2mins on and a countdown clock and ready to race on zero. Not ready, excluded with no replacement allowed. No return to pits or they too are excluded. 

Winning rider rides round for lap of honour, while doing so 2mins on for next heat and so on.

5min break every 4 heats. Allows for track grade, toilet/tea breaks for medical teams etc.

No more intervals, absolutely pointless.

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1 hour ago, norbold said:

I'm not sure I can think of any riders in that category, Sidney. What I can remember is that the first time I saw Roy Trigg and Dave Jessup, who was 15 years old and having his first-ever competitive ride, I thought they are going to be good. Funnily enough, Dave Jessup's first race was against another first timer, the 16 year old Barry Thomas, who actually won the race. But there was something about Jessup's style and determination that convinced me he was going to make it and was a better prospect than Thomas.

I suppose of those I mentioned, the least impressive at first sight was Malcolm Simmons, but even then, although maybe not showing signs of the great star he was to become, certainly showed the makings of a good team rider.

I know the calibre of the rider i mentioned were knowwhere the level of rider you mentioned Norbold my take on it was that it was very tough to make it in the old division 1 just coming through second halves.Plenty of riders failed over the years  thinking of Thomas how much pleasure did he give the fans over the years a real racer Simmo/Jessup both fine stylists.

Edited by Sidney the robin

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2 hours ago, OveFundinFan said:

I'm up for "second half" races to give juniors a chance of regular track time. And these juniors may well be "local" to the track, thus EXPENSES need not be high. No points money, just expenses to keep costs down.  Saw many juniors coming through the ranks at BV, even before Dent Oliver did the Rochdale team.in the early 70's.

Dent Oliver how far ahead of his time was he Ove? such a shame he did not live longer did so much as a team manager with young up/coming kids.And myself at times have forgot how  good a rider Dent was in his own right, Oliver and Frank Varey have always been Speedway heroes of mine

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