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Sidney the robin

Simmo how is he remembered?

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1 hour ago, Grachan said:

There was nothing wrong with that rule. It meant we had a proper first and second division. Sure, people like Simmons may have dropped points to drop down, but at least it kept the leagues at a standard they are supposed to be.

How can they (the league) have been a standard they're supposed to have been when at least one rider is purposely dropping points to get into the other league?

Edited by moxey63

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Just now, moxey63 said:

How can they be a standard they're supposed to be when at least one rider is purposely dropping points to get into the other league?

Because he was cheating. That's his fault, not the league's.

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12 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

John Dews couldn't adapt to White City when 'The Rebels' moved to Wood Lane and would have been a very able number one for 'The Cheetahs' in 1976 but his average was deemed too high and he subsequently retired.

Gordon Kennett was forced to quit in the mid-90s because he had performed too well in matches for Wolves at reserve, moved into heatleader spot after the first averages, struggled, was dropped by Wolves, wanted to go to Oxford in the second division, but his average was too high. Another stalwart forced to quit.

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4 minutes ago, Grachan said:

Because he was cheating. That's his fault, not the league's.

But the rule allowed him, encouraged him to do so, did it not. Like the mysterious engine failures the Poole boys suffered in the early qualifying matches of the league season about five years ago, there was even an investigation to see if they had (don't know how they'd have proved that one). so they could jettison a few under-performing riders and welcome aboard a few stronger one. If a rule is there to encourage cheating, it means some cheats may be encouraged.

Edited by moxey63
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Just now, moxey63 said:

But the rules allowed him, encouraged him to do so, did it not. Like the mysterious engine failures the Poole boys suffered in the early qualifying matches of the league season about five years ago, there was even an investigation to see if they had (don't know how they'd have proved that one). If a rule is there to encourage cheating, it means some cheats may be encouraged.

The rules did not allow him to do it, otherwise it wouldn't be cheating. You could say it encouraged cheating, but there was a rule saying riders had to make a bonafide attempt to race - although being excluded for that would, ironically, have counted as a race and lowered his average.

I remember Rickard Hellsen making the most obvious bad final turn too, enabling to be passed after the rider in front had an engine failure. He'd already signed for Long Eaton for the following year and came perilously close to averaging over 6.00 in that moment.

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7 minutes ago, Grachan said:

The rules did not allow him to do it, otherwise it wouldn't be cheating. You could say it encouraged cheating, but there was a rule saying riders had to make a bonafide attempt to race - although being excluded for that would, ironically, have counted as a race and lowered his average.

I remember Rickard Hellsen making the most obvious bad final turn too, enabling to be passed after the rider in front had an engine failure. He'd already signed for Long Eaton for the following year and came perilously close to averaging over 6.00 in that moment.

I understand that. But just the inkling that a rider may be dropping points on purpose takes away from a brilliant race in the long run. The number of times in my latter years of watching did I ponder if a good pass was a good pass or just that the leader was going to get some form of advantage from it or had been told by his team to do so.

I grew too cynical. I watched too many dodgy things happen in the latter years. And don't get me going about how Poole fans were calling for Matt Ford to quit just months back, crowds were dipping, the team were getting weak, weak enough to bring aboard riders to strengthen, but just in time to roar ahead in the title chase. Seems like a fairy tale, a wrestling match, but not the spot I believe in too much nowadays.   

Edited by moxey63

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1 minute ago, moxey63 said:

I understand that. But just the inkling that a rider may be dropping points on purpose takes away from a brilliant race in the long run. The number of times in my latter years of watching did I ponder if a good pass was a good pass or just that the leader was going to get some form of advantage from it or had been told by his team to do so.

I grew too cynical. I watched too many dodgy things happen in the latter years. And don't get me going about how Poole fans were calling for Matt Ford to quit just months back, crowds were dipping, the team were getting weak, weak enough to bring aboard riders to strengthen, but just in time to roar ahead in the title chase. Seems like a fairy tale, a wrestling match, but not the spot I believe in too much nowadays.   

I think that's a valid point, and, as you say, it is encouraged by the rules even if it is, technically, cheating.

The average manipulation we get now is because the points limit is always too low so it is the best way to get a stronger team later in the year.

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23 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

Gordon Kennett was forced to quit in the mid-90s because he had performed too well in matches for Wolves at reserve, moved into heatleader spot after the first averages, struggled, was dropped by Wolves, wanted to go to Oxford in the second division, but his average was too high. Another stalwart forced to quit.

...Yes I recall Oxford wanting to sign Gordon whose converted average was deemed just too high. He would have made a good a signing and would have pleased many 'old time' Oxford fans!

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12 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

I understand that. But just the inkling that a rider may be dropping points on purpose takes away from a brilliant race in the long run. The number of times in my latter years of watching did I ponder if a good pass was a good pass or just that the leader was going to get some form of advantage from it or had been told by his team to do so.

I grew too cynical. I watched too many dodgy things happen in the latter years. And don't get me going about how Poole fans were calling for Matt Ford to quit just months back, crowds were dipping, the team were getting weak, weak enough to bring aboard riders to strengthen, but just in time to roar ahead in the title chase. Seems like a fairy tale, a wrestling match, but not the spot I believe in too much nowadays.   

...slightly different scenario but I remember Steve Lomas dropping points (feigned engine failure?) when on a potential heat advantage thus moving Hackney into a six point lead but his subsequent action (Len Silver inspired 'allegedly') denied the opposing team to utilise a Tac Sub in the following race.

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19 minutes ago, Grachan said:

I think that's a valid point, and, as you say, it is encouraged by the rules even if it is, technically, cheating.

The average manipulation we get now is because the points limit is always too low so it is the best way to get a stronger team later in the year.

In the olden days, like when Simmo dropped points to enable a switch to the NL, it really didn't concern me one bit. The race-fixing allegation, also. I loved the sport back then and brushed away its impurities. But for some reason, things I readily accepted for years - like riders drifting back to drop a place to allow their team the use of the old tact-sub, I was brought up with that, were encouraged in other realms of the sport. I just think any rule that allows a rider to contemplate dropping the gas should be reviewed and scratched. We all recall the Crump v Pedersen slowest race-to-the- line in speedway history about 15 years ago, when one country wanted to use the Joker and the other side didn't want them to, so the leader dropped off the gas on the third turn and the second placed rider did likewise when he saw what the first placed rider had done. It was silly. The sport should be better than that. 

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I loved the old tac rule, six points behind and all that. But, for speedway's credibility and forward thinking, my modern-day take on this rule is not to have it. If it allows team managers behind the scenes telling their riders to accept a certain position and nothing else so that his team can either utilise the rule or stop the other team using it, although I like it, perhaps the aim for pure speedway racing overrides a rule I once loved (probably might still).  

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On 9/8/2018 at 4:44 PM, frigbo said:

My view of Simmo is greatly tarnished by his spell non-trying (by his own admission) at Swindon to reduce his average to drop to Hackney in the NL.

Which seems to be common practice these days !

Commenting on 'Simmo' as a rider ? pure class !

After reading his auto biography, it appeared that he led a colourful life... causing a few controversies on and off the track along the way, but again, nothing out the ordinary these days!

Nobody's perfect!

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Just think of all the old riders who were eventually forced into retirement by rules and difficulty being fitted in.

Then think about today, when a rider must be looked at as being a bit daft if he isn't doubling up and down. 

And Simmo was a class act. A brilliant, stylish rider who also had a colourful side, someone who had a story to tell and which interested us for many an hour. I think his last fullish year with Arena Essex in the late 80's tarnished his image somewhat. If I recall, he kept them hanging on a bit when out injured and didn't really want to race again after the Gundersen crash.

 I watched him at 43, in his last but one match in a short-lived comeback for King's Lynn in '93 at Belle Vue. And, do you know what, god rest his soul, if he was racing at Belle Vue tonight, I'd be there in a shot.  

Edited by moxey63
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28 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

Just think of all the old riders who were eventually forced into retirement by rules and difficulty being fitted in.

Then think about today, when a rider must be looked at as being a bit daft if he isn't doubling up and down. 

And Simmo was a class act. A brilliant, stylish rider who also had a colourful side, someone who had a story to tell and which interested us for many an hour. I think his last fullish year with Arena Essex in the late 80's tarnished his image somewhat. If I recall, he kept them hanging on a bit when out injured and didn't really want to race again after the Gundersen crash.

 I watched him at 43, in his last but one match in a short-lived comeback for King's Lynn in '93 at Belle Vue. And, do you know what, god rest his soul, if he was racing at Belle Vue tonight, I'd be there in a shot.  

I seem to remember that King's Lynn used him as a doubling up rider before the powers that be decided to move the goalposts mid-season and denied 'old hands' from riding in the top league?

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18 hours ago, moxey63 said:

Just think of all the old riders who were eventually forced into retirement by rules and difficulty being fitted in.

Then think about today, when a rider must be looked at as being a bit daft if he isn't doubling up and down. 

And Simmo was a class act. A brilliant, stylish rider who also had a colourful side, someone who had a story to tell and which interested us for many an hour. I think his last fullish year with Arena Essex in the late 80's tarnished his image somewhat. If I recall, he kept them hanging on a bit when out injured and didn't really want to race again after the Gundersen crash.

 I watched him at 43, in his last but one match in a short-lived comeback for King's Lynn in '93 at Belle Vue. And, do you know what, god rest his soul, if he was racing at Belle Vue tonight, I'd be there in a shot.  

Funny thing is Moxey for years Simmo was just a great rider in my eyes the odd indinscrepicency but his reputation went after the Poole/Fearman episode.I don't know the full facts of that  and i don't care he was a great rider who i enjoyed watching immensely  also he was great with the fans.

 

Edited by Sidney the robin
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