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False dawn

Unfair advantage - starting gates

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2 hours ago, SPEEDY69 said:

Really, I don't remember that and have been going since 1978 - they've always had to alternate gates for each side 1/3 or 2/4?

 

3 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

Found the info. 2009 Premier League KOC - King's Lynn v Berwick. Topinka & Eklof are KL rider's, Franc & Clews Berwick rider's. Knew I didn't make it up.

Screenshot_20180911-144702_Edge.thumb.jpg.3d3eab18a2faf2696ca923f7ce0082fe.jpg

And to show it wasn't a typo on the updates

 

Screenshot_20180911-145242_Edge.jpg

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No way you can have a concrete starting pad, the dirt will disappear from either side leaving a big ridge to get over, especially on smaller tracks riders are often sideways at that point as well.

I've long said I think you should get choice of gates (1&3 or 2&4) when x points behind rather than any sort of tactical scheme.

Maybe the start line should be slightly slanted with gate 4 a foot or two further forward than gate one.

As for the statistics on gate success I think you need to know who goes onto the back straight in the lead rather than race winners.

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1 hour ago, Vince said:

No way you can have a concrete starting pad, the dirt will disappear from either side leaving a big ridge to get over, especially on smaller tracks riders are often sideways at that point as well.

I've long said I think you should get choice of gates (1&3 or 2&4) when x points behind rather than any sort of tactical scheme.

Maybe the start line should be slightly slanted with gate 4 a foot or two further forward than gate one.

As for the statistics on gate success I think you need to know who goes onto the back straight in the lead rather than race winners.

Machines are too powerful for concrete starts also. Bikes more likely to flip from the starts when they go from concrete to dirt.

Maybe go back to having pushers at the starts. Would cut costs on burnt out clutches :D

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23 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

Machines are too powerful for concrete starts also. Bikes more likely to flip from the starts when they go from concrete to dirt.

Maybe go back to having pushers at the starts. Would cut costs on burnt out clutches :D

...Interesting interview with Tony Lomas in the latest 'Backtrack' magazine where he talks about his prowess from the gate. Apparently during his day job testing motorbikes he would practice throttle and clutch control on the road from a standing start and put those skills into practice when on his speedway bike. It helped with traction and not creating too much rear wheel spin. 

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2 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...Interesting interview with Tony Lomas in the latest 'Backtrack' magazine where he talks about his prowess from the gate. Apparently during his day job testing motorbikes he would practice throttle and clutch control on the road from a standing start and put those skills into practice when on his speedway bike. It helped with traction and not creating too much rear wheel spin. 

Back in the day to today are very different out the starts. If today's engines ain't high revving they just die or there's to much grip and flip.

As the engine's are so high revving you can't go from concrete to dirt. So dangerous.

The only way to make a concrete start safer the the concrete would have to run right up to the first bend, then of course, rider run added risk if any crashes happen between the tapes and first bend. 

Concrete, tarmac etc is just not viable today.

Best thing to do is not allow gardening at all, have a count down clock and only allow the starting grid to be accessible with 10secs remaining.

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turning the clock back again, I happen to think the choice of gates was better in the 70s. don't like fixed gates in league racing...Olsen always grabbed gate one, Morton usually off 4..this gave slightly more tactics (which lack today), to managers, riders

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On 9/11/2018 at 3:23 PM, Vince said:

No way you can have a concrete starting pad, the dirt will disappear from either side leaving a big ridge to get over, especially on smaller tracks riders are often sideways at that point as well.

I've long said I think you should get choice of gates (1&3 or 2&4) when x points behind rather than any sort of tactical scheme.

Maybe the start line should be slightly slanted with gate 4 a foot or two further forward than gate one.

As for the statistics on gate success I think you need to know who goes onto the back straight in the lead rather than race winners.

I'd like that tried to, choice of gate positions used as tactical changes. 

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On 11 September 2018 at 3:23 PM, Vince said:

No way you can have a concrete starting pad, the dirt will disappear from either side leaving a big ridge to get over, especially on smaller tracks riders are often sideways at that point as well.

I've long said I think you should get choice of gates (1&3 or 2&4) when x points behind rather than any sort of tactical scheme.

Maybe the start line should be slightly slanted with gate 4 a foot or two further forward than gate one.

As for the statistics on gate success I think you need to know who goes onto the back straight in the lead rather than race winners.

I recall Ole Olsen suggesting this in an interview he gave to 'Backtrack' some years ago.

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On 9/11/2018 at 6:31 AM, steve roberts said:

...I recall that concrete starts were used once but soon discarded after a couple of years (?)

Seem to remember a rider flipping over on the concrete start at the old Blackbird Road track and breaking his back. I used to know his name but sadly it's no longer stored.

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On 9/11/2018 at 8:11 AM, Richard Weston said:

Think you can still see them at the old California track just off M3 in Surrey

Berkshire please - us Berks don’t want to be associated with Surrey !!

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Concrete starting grid at Stoke 1953, with Belle Vue, led by Jack Parker, as visitors
It looks to be about 4 bikes length, going well beyond the stationery bike position, so that transition isn't abrupt.
(Peter craven is 3rd from left, on back row.)

Belle-Vue-at-Stoke-1952.gif

Edited by britmet
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40 minutes ago, britmet said:

Concrete starting grid at Stoke 1953, with Belle Vue, led by Jack Parker, as visitors
It looks to be about 4 bikes length, going well beyond the stationery bike position, so that transition isn't abrupt.
(Peter craven is 3rd from left, on back row.)

2

Not sure how this thread got revived after being dormant for many months but having reread it I still think there are ways to solve the problem. I read with interest the pros and cons of concrete starting gates but can't believe for a minute this is the way forward. Surely the torque generated by modern bikes rules out this as a possibility?

My original contention was that although the stats show a clear advantage for one gate at times, looking at several meetings at the same circuit suggests that there is nothing intrinsically right or wrong with any one gate. To me, that suggests track preparation around the start line and the upkeep of the surface during the meeting are more crucial. It never fails to amaze me that when one gate is becoming an obvious graveyard during a meeting, no attempt is made to level up the surface. I'm no expert and I'm sure I couldn't look at the surface and say what needs to be done. But then I'm not the track curator or the starting marshal who stands there week in week out. 

Grade the starts and those that want it, could have an argument to ban "gardening".

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On 9/11/2018 at 3:23 PM, Vince said:

 

Maybe the start line should be slightly slanted with gate 4 a foot or two further forward than gate one.

 

I've long thought this is something that should happen but the distance that gate 4 is in front of gate 1 should be unique to each track.

I think 2 feet forward at most tracks would be way too much.

All starts should be made to be as even as possible, there are enough boring races in Speedway without the starts giving advantages to certain gate positions.

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It is of course actually standard practice at some tracks to make certain gates advantageous on an alternating basis as required throughout a meeting.....:o

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Just now, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

It is of course actually standard practice at some tracks to make certain gates advantageous on an alternating basis as required throughout a meeting.....:o

And giving the losing the side choice of gates, means the track staff don't know which gates to favour in those circumstances doesn't it?

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