chunky 6,090 Posted October 5, 2018 54 minutes ago, mickthemuppet said: Under the old World Championship the most successful rider was Freddie Williams with two world championships and one runner's up. But then it was open to all riders and not like today when it is only a few are allowed to enter ...and every final was held on his home track... Steve 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OveFundinFan 4,140 Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) Could be said that Peter Craven was more successful then Freddie Williams. PC won 2, 3rd twice, 4th twice, and appeared in 10 finals compared with FW 5 final appearances. Plus Craven won medals in the World team, 2x 2nd, and 2x 3rd, Freddie none. So you can make a case for greatest from all round success rather then WC wins. Then of course there was Peter Collins...….. Apart from being world champ '76 and 2nd '77 (arguably could/should have been more) World Pairs 4x winner, 1x 2nd World Team 5x winner, 3x 2nd World Long Tack 1x 2nd, 2x 3rd, 1x 4th, 1x 5th Of course, just getting in a World Team or World Pairs was tough in those days, so many top riders for GB Argument could be put forward that Tai has some catching up (although 3x world champ is very good on his CV) Edited October 5, 2018 by OveFundinFan 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,242 Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said: Could be said that Peter Craven was more successful then Freddie Williams. PC won 2, 3rd twice, 4th twice, and appeared in 10 finals compared with FW 5 final appearances. Plus Craven won medals in the World team, 2x 2nd, and 2x 3rd, Freddie none. So you can make a case for greatest from all round success rather then WC wins. Then of course there was Peter Collins...….. ...or British League successes. I'm of the John Berry ilk. I don't just grade great riders on individual championships alone but their all round contribution whether as an individual or a team player. However can't comment on Tai as I've never seen him ride but saw his dad, Rob, often. Edited October 5, 2018 by steve roberts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vince 9,454 Posted October 5, 2018 2 hours ago, mickthemuppet said: Under the old World Championship the most successful rider was Freddie Williams with two world championships and one runner's up. But then it was open to all riders and not like today when it is only a few are allowed to enter Who do you think is missing from the current series that could win a Championship. On the other hand under the old system you could have a potential winner out of the World Championship in the first round. I went to some of the Wembley finals and while they were great occasions there was a deal of luck involved with gate positions let alone mechanical problems or injuries and don't ever forget it was possible to buy points off those who had a bad night toward the end of the meeting.. Great events but not the best way to find the worlds best rider that year in my opinion. One other thing to remember was that Wembley World finals didn't produce much in the way of great racing, certainly in these days of instant comment they would be slaughtered as race meetings. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,966 Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, steve roberts said: The GP series is basically an 'invitation' series of meetings as was often stated by no greater rider than Ivan Mauger himself. But it isn’t.You have to qualify for the GPs just as for most sporting championships.The qualification specifications are set out beforehand.It doesn’t make it any less a proper world championship because Hancock can’t get knocked out in some quali round and Ben Barker can somehow fluke a decent meeting on his home track and make i through Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mickthemuppet 976 Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, chunky said: ...and every final was held on his home track... Steve But he had qualifying rounds at Belle Vue and West Ham (Which he also won) to get to Wembley in 1950 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,966 Posted October 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, mickthemuppet said: But he had qualifying rounds at Belle Vue and West Ham (Which he also won) to get to Wembley in 1950 But nothing in Sweden,Poland,Russia,Germany and not even in Glasgow!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,242 Posted October 5, 2018 46 minutes ago, iris123 said: But it isn’t.You have to qualify for the GPs just as for most sporting championships.The qualification specifications are set out beforehand.It doesn’t make it any less a proper world championship because Hancock can’t get knocked out in some quali round and Ben Barker can somehow fluke a decent meeting on his home track and make i through ...How many automatically qualify for the following year's competition based on their overall finishing position? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 4,993 Posted October 5, 2018 55 minutes ago, iris123 said: But it isn’t.You have to qualify for the GPs just as for most sporting championships.The qualification specifications are set out beforehand.It doesn’t make it any less a proper world championship because Hancock can’t get knocked out in some quali round and Ben Barker can somehow fluke a decent meeting on his home track and make i through Even today's GP closed shop is better than the old inter & continental final qualifiers where token quali spots were given to Eastern block countries effectively making the one off world final a 10 (ish) horse race Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,966 Posted October 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, steve roberts said: ...How many automatically qualify for the following year's competition based on their overall finishing position? Doesn’t matter.You said the magic word ‘qualify’!! Only a very small proportion are picked.Who qualifies in F1?How many qualify in Tennis or are there qualification rounds in the world cycling championship?Speedway at least has a quali route Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,242 Posted October 5, 2018 Just now, iris123 said: Doesn’t matter.You said the magic word ‘qualify’!! Only a very small proportion are picked.Who qualifies in F1?How many qualify in Tennis or are there qualification rounds in the world cycling championship?Speedway at least has a quali route ...that's not the question I asked. I was generally interested in knowing what the number was as I have no idea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,966 Posted October 5, 2018 1 minute ago, steve roberts said: ...that's not the question I asked. I was generally interested in knowing what the number was as I have no idea. Er you said it is basically an invitation series without even knowing how many qualify?!?!?!?! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FAST GATER 852 Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) No getting away from it winning ( I am sure he will ) 3 titles will be a great achievement for Tai as it would for any rider regardless of his nationality ,I don't care where a rider is from I am more interested in their riding style myself and the way in which they conduct themselves on the track .As to him being the greatest british rider of all time that is a matter of opinion and depends how you measure it , I am not great Tai fan but do believe he is a extremely talented rider and should be given the respect he deserves within the sport. I wish him well for tomorrow night but will be rooting for Zmarzilk, I love his style and he never knows when he is beaten . Edited October 5, 2018 by FAST GATER 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,242 Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, iainb said: Even today's GP closed shop is better than the old inter & continental final qualifiers where token quali spots were given to Eastern block countries effectively making the one off world final a 10 (ish) horse race ...If I recalll towards the latter days of the one-off World Finals it was decided to run with two semi-finals so as to allow a better system of qualification rather than he old sysem of running a Continental Final which allowed a direct route for the Eastern Bloc countries. Not sure how many years that ran for before the GPs kicked in? Edited October 5, 2018 by steve roberts 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,242 Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, iris123 said: Er you said it is basically an invitation series without even knowing how many qualify?!?!?!?! ...I recall that there was a Grand Prix Challenge that allowed a number to qualify but that a certain number retained their place based on finishing positions. Is that still the system in place today or is it more complex than that which allows competitors to compete in a series of qualifying meetings? (one question mark!) It's a point that Ivan Mauger was always keen to highlight in the past whenever the subject was broached. Edited October 5, 2018 by steve roberts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites