ColinMills 1,728 Posted October 7, 2018 5 minutes ago, chunky said: This thread is not called "Colin Mills prefers..."! I "preferred" the 1970's WTC, but most of the time, GB/England didn't have too much opposition. Therefore, you can't claim that Collins scoring maximums against the Gordeevs and Glucklich was as impressive as Woffinden beating Laguta, Sayfutdinov, and Janowski... Steve I see you picked the weak pairings....ricky wells and brock really compare to Penhall and Sigalos!! and as for "colin mills prefers" is different to making so called FACTS that are nowhere near FACTS Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatface 2,549 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, chunky said: And how many meetings and rides did Szczakiel need to become World Champion? And how many meetings and rides did Michanek need to become World Champion? Don't forget the home-track advantage for Van Praag, Price, and Williams... To win a GP series, you really have to earn it, and you don't lose it because of a single minor e/f... I love the way people complain about the top 8 qualifying for the next year's series, but it was okay for the top 11 to qualify from the Inter-Continental Final... Steve It’s worth slipping off the rose tinted specs and looking back in the cold light of day at some of the ways WCs were won in the good old days...here’s another example.. 1980 - Mike Lee British Semi Final, Sheffield, GB, 9pts, 5th (8 to qualify) British Final, Coventry, GB, 14pts, 2nd (10 to qualify) Commonwealth Final, Wimbledon, GB, 9pts, 7th (9 to qualify) Intercontinental Final, White City, GB, 9pts, 6th (10 to qualify) World Final, Gothenburg, SWE, 14pts, 1st The point is not to say Mike Lee was an unworthy champion, he was a top notch rider and a good champion. But if anyone suggests the above route to the title is tougher than Tai Woffinden’s season long battle against the world’s best across 10 meetings in 7 countries coming down to the 229th race of 230, then its simply delusional. If a Mike Lee or PC or even a Simmo or John Louis had ever performed like Woffinden did last night - in particular in the face of adversity in his main opponent’s backyard - people would still be drooling about it now. Edited October 7, 2018 by falcace 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vince 9,454 Posted October 7, 2018 2 hours ago, tyler42 said: I keep hearing that todays riders have so much more skill? It sure takes a lot of skill to hold the bike flat out on a slick track for 4 laps!. With a nice little air fence added for extra protection! Just look what happen at a recent GP when there is a bit of dirt on the track. They had there little riders meetings and demanded to have all the dirt scraped off. If they are so skilful, surely they can ride in any conditions? There is a thing called a throttle and it can go both ways! I look forward to your demonstration of just how easy it is. A bit of dirt on the track!! It was a mess. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tyler42 150 Posted October 7, 2018 A bit like the 77 final ! 1 minute ago, Vince said: I look forward to your demonstration of just how easy it is. A bit of dirt on the track!! It was a mess. A bit like the 77 final a! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,610 Posted October 7, 2018 3 hours ago, ColinMills said: totally agree, but in "my opinion" speedway as a package was credible, rules that wasn't swayed the way they are today..i cant see many sports around that has lost the fan base in such huge numbers the way speedway has. Was it ...the rules in the old days were just as stupid and not credible at all ..look at the make up of the world finals your be hard find something as stupid as that Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vince 9,454 Posted October 7, 2018 9 minutes ago, tyler42 said: A bit like the 77 final ! A bit like the 77 final a! Ah! Another top class meeting remembered for the entertaining racing. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 7, 2018 2 hours ago, tyler42 said: You still don't get it do you. You're whole argument hangs on you're fact that the riders i mention would become average riders in this so called hard 1st division of today. Where the majority is made up of 2nd division riders I disagree with that statement Please prove otherwise. Please have the decency to answer all of my question, not just the bit what suits your argument. You do come across a lot of in you're posts as a very arrogant person who tries to use facts as an excuse, but you're facts are in fact your own opinions and as such, You cannot debate, without becoming a very annoyingly mr know it all. Please refrain from assuming you know everything about the sport. your replies it shows you certainly don't. I get it perfectly. You don't understand maths. That's all there is too it, simple maths. Let's just take the top two riders in the league, who they are doesn't matter.. but these two are the two very best, head and shoulders above the others. Now, what you are claiming is that they would find it easier to get a higher average in the second of the two scenarios: That in a league where their teams will race once at home and once away.. with them racing each other very often just once in a meeting, sometimes twice.. meaning the maximum they're going to race is four times over a season.. Now, in all of those races one of them will finish 2nd. In a league where they race each other twice at home and twice away and meet each other at least twice in a meeting, but most often three times (can even be four!)... that means they're likely racing each other twelve times in a season... not four. Again, one of them is going to lose. Now go to the 10th best rider in the league.. in the old format he's racing the nine riders above him 2-4 times a season... in the current format he's suddenly racing them up to 18 times a season as in some matches he'll be against two of them. For the 20th best the problem is even worse. The number of high average riders is not dictated by the ability of the riders but by the size of the league. The larger the league, the more 'top riders' there appears to be as you simply aren't seeing the real top riders race so often and therefore riders of a lower level of ability look better as they aren't losing so often. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,085 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, ColinMills said: I see you picked the weak pairings....ricky wells and brock really compare to Penhall and Sigalos!! and as for "colin mills prefers" is different to making so called FACTS that are nowhere near FACTS What the hell are you talking about? I never mentioned "pairings", and what have Wells, Brock, Sigalos, and Penhall to do with my comment? The 1970's WTC never had pairings. Peter Collins scored three consecutive maximums in WTC Finals - against the likes of of the Gordeevs and Glucklich. Michanek was the ONLY true superstar PC faced in those finals. Woffinden dropped just one point in the SoN Final this year, and beat the likes of Laguta, Sayfutdinov, and Janowski. No disrespect to the Gordeevs and Glucklich, but they were nowhere near the standard of Laguta, Sayfutdinov, or Janowski. Therefore, while PC was a superb rider, and three gold medals and maximums in WTC Finals was an achievement, Tai's performance in Wroclaw (over a similar number of rides) MUST be considered far superior. Please try to stay relevant to the discussion... Steve Edited October 7, 2018 by chunky Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sotonian 609 Posted October 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, chunky said: What the hell are you talking about? I never mentioned "pairings", and what have Wells, Brock, Sigalos, and Penhall to do with my comment? The 1970's WTC never had pairings. Peter Collins scored three consecutive maximums in WTC Finals - against the likes of of the Gordeevs and Glucklich. Michanek was the ONLY true superstar PC faced in those finals. Woffinden dropped just one point in the SoN Final this year, and beat the likes of Laguta, Sayfutdinov, and Janowski. No disrespect to the Gordeevs and Glucklich, but they were nowhere near the standard of Laguta, Sayfutdinov, or Janowski. Therefore, while PC was a superb rider, and three gold medals and maximums in WTC Finals was an achievement, Tai's performance in Stock as (over a similar number of rides) MUST be considered far superior. Please try to stay relevant to the discussion... Steve Mich was leading Collins by half a lap until he had an e.f on the last lap in one of those finals so Collins was not quite as dominant as that record might suggest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ColinMills 1,728 Posted October 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, chunky said: What the hell are you talking about? I never mentioned "pairings", and what have Wells, Brock, Sigalos, and Penhall to do with my comment? The 1970's WTC never had pairings. Peter Collins scored three consecutive maximums in WTC Finals - against the likes of of the Gordeevs and Glucklich. Michanek was the ONLY true superstar PC faced in those finals. Woffinden dropped just one point in the SoN Final this year, and beat the likes of Laguta, Sayfutdinov, and Janowski. No disrespect to the Gordeevs and Glucklich, but they were nowhere near the standard of Laguta, Sayfutdinov, or Janowski. Therefore, while PC was a superb rider, and three gold medals and maximums in WTC Finals was an achievement, Tai's performance in Stock as (over a similar number of rides) MUST be considered far superior. Please try to stay relevant to the discussion... Steve quite simply if you enjoy todays GPs, carry on enjoying it, if you think todays GP carry on thinking it..just don't call it a FACT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 7, 2018 Just now, ColinMills said: quite simply if you enjoy todays GPs, carry on enjoying it, if you think todays GP carry on thinking it..just don't call it a FACT The discussion isn't about enjoying the GP or World Finals. Nobody has said they didn't enjoy World Finals.. not one single person. The discussion is when folks like yourself post factually incorrect nonsense in an attempt to prove why the old World Finals were better. You enjoyed them more, many did, that's perfectly fine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ColinMills 1,728 Posted October 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, BWitcher said: The discussion isn't about enjoying the GP or World Finals. Nobody has said they didn't enjoy World Finals.. not one single person. The discussion is when folks like yourself post factually incorrect nonsense in an attempt to prove why the old World Finals were better. You enjoyed them more, many did, that's perfectly fine. I have never used the FACT word once..please show me if I have? I am not trying to PROVE one off finals better either, I have only said what I preferred, and no amount of what you or anyone else suggest would change my mind, and im sure that's the same visa versa....its opinions that differ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,085 Posted October 7, 2018 8 minutes ago, ColinMills said: I have never used the FACT word once..please show me if I have? I am not trying to PROVE one off finals better either, I have only said what I preferred, and no amount of what you or anyone else suggest would change my mind, and im sure that's the same visa versa....its opinions that differ I said I liked the finals also. However, the GP IS designed to qualify a higher quality - and more balanced - field, and DOES drastically reduce the luck aspect. FACT Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ColinMills 1,728 Posted October 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, chunky said: I said I liked the finals also. However, the GP IS designed to qualify a higher quality - and more balanced - field, and DOES drastically reduce the luck aspect. FACT Steve Ok, cos you put FACT in capitals, you must be right Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,085 Posted October 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, ColinMills said: Ok, cos you put FACT in capitals, you must be right Do you not agree? Do you not think that the luck aspect is reduced? Do you think the old system was designed to find the best 16 riders in the world? Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
