Aces51 2,777 Posted October 8, 2018 1 hour ago, iris123 said: My opinion is that is isn’t easy to compare 100%.We can point to the fact that PC died at a stage where it was still possible to win more titles.My one doubt about him was his very poor performance in Sweden.A different time,but Craven made some great performances in challenge meetins in Poland and Russia.But against Polish and Russian riders,who were good but not the best.Tai has proved himself around Europe and the world against the very best.There can be no doubt about his ability on various tracks.Not quite so sure because of Malmo,we can say the same about Craven and any British rider from that era or before You're comparing apples and pears. Craven had very little experience of riding in Sweden. In the 50's and 60's speedway revolved around the UK and British riders rarely rode abroad, apart from winter trips to South Africa and Australia. Tai has literally grown up, in terms of his career, racing in Poland and Sweden. I'm not sure about the point your trying to make in your later comments about Craven in the 1956 season. Tai was world champion in 2013, his UK average in 2014 was 7.03. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,853 Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Aces51 said: You're comparing apples and pears. Craven had very little experience of riding in Sweden. In the 50's and 60's speedway revolved around the UK and British riders rarely rode abroad, apart from winter trips to South Africa and Australia. Tai has literally grown up, in terms of his career, racing in Poland and Sweden. I'm not sure about the point your trying to make in your later comments about Craven in the 1956 season. Tai was world champion in 2013, his UK average in 2014 was 7.03. But Craven had a style that maybe wasn't equipped for other tracks abroad.His record seems to suggest he wasn't that great,at least in major finals.1 world individual and 4 WTc finals abroad And the point I am making is more often than not in domestic meetings at or against Wimbledon Craven was beaten when he met the better riders.Hardly beat Briggo,Ronnie and Peter Moore all season,but did much better against the lesser riders. Edited October 8, 2018 by iris123 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tyler42 150 Posted October 8, 2018 2 hours ago, iris123 said: We have a hell of a lot of riders who have been riding speedway since they were 5,6 or 7 years old.That was pretty well unheard of 30 years ago.Riders started as teenagers generally.10 years of experience must pay dividends.That is without the fitness,diet,psychological aspects of modern sport Nothing has changed really, This program was from the Junior grass track championships 1978 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatface 2,525 Posted October 8, 2018 10 minutes ago, iris123 said: National titles are no longer a mark of greatness.I think the rider with the most Danish final wins is Niels Kristian Iversen and that in the Nicki Pedersen era.Now nobody in their right mind will try to use those titles to suggest NKI is better than Nicki let alone Hans Nielsen and Ole Olsen Larry Ross has won more NZ titles than Moore, Briggs and Mauger combined! Therefore.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,853 Posted October 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, tyler42 said: Nothing has changed really, This program was from the Junior grass track championships 1978 Fair enough.I see the likes of Dean Barker and Havelock were 8 or 10 years old then.I didn't realise they started so early 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barney Rabbit 713 Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Grachan said: But we'll never know how Zmarzlik or Laguta would have coped once the Championship was on the line either. Neither could pull it off once they had a victory in their sights. We're having facts, FACTS even, thrown at us to back up the pro argument but now conjecture is fine if facts hold up the anti argument. Woffinden came a purler with nothing on the line - he had two further rides to get the points needed to finish in the top eight - so why should we suppose things would have been different if the ride was important. More pressure (at that time, anything that happened in a sixth or seventh ride is irrelevant) could have affected him adversely, we don't know. What we do know is that, after five rides, Woffinden had not scored enough points to have won the Championship. FACT Edited October 8, 2018 by Barney Rabbit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tyler42 150 Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, iris123 said: Fair enough.I see the likes of Dean Barker and Havelock were 8 or 10 years old then.I didn't realise they started so early Most young British riders who rode speedway in the 80's did junior grass track iris 123. Being an old Dons fan, do you not remember a Junior grass track held on Tooting Bec common back in the late 70's Both Luckhurst boys rode that day 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, Barney Rabbit said: We're having facts, FACTS even, thrown at us to back up the pro argument but now conjecture is fine if facts hold up the anti argument. Woffinden came a purler with nothing on the line - he had two further rides to get the points needed to finish in the top eight - so why should we suppose things would have been different if the ride was important. More pressure (at that time, anything that happened in a sixth or seventh ride is irrelevant) could have affected him adversely, we don't know. What we do know is that, after five rides, Woffinden had not scored enough points to have won the Championship. FACT You haven't provided a single fact to hold up the anti argument. Saturday night was not a World Final. The World Champion was not decided by the first five races on Saturday night. The winner of the GP was not decided by the winner of the first five races on Saturday night. As such your 'comparison' is irrelevant. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, tyler42 said: Most young British riders who rode speedway in the 80's did junior grass track iris 123. Being an old Dons fan, do you not remember a Junior grass track held on Tooting Bec common back in the late 70's Both Luckhurst boys rode that day This is true. The key difference doesn't lie in their early years as many riders with talent can reach a certain point.. it's what happens after that. In the modern era you have to dedicate yourself and be a lot more organised than in the past when your natural talent could get you further. That said, those at the VERY top did go that extra mile for their era, hence why they were at the top, especially from Mauger onwards. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,853 Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, tyler42 said: Most young British riders who rode speedway in the 80's did junior grass track iris 123. Being an old Dons fan, do you not remember a Junior grass track held on Tooting Bec common back in the late 70's Both Luckhurst boys rode that day Don't remember that at all.I went to one grass track meeting in the mid 70s,but that was Kent or Surrey way.I do though remember we used to have the Kent junior grass track club do a second half each season.Think Dave Jessup turned out in one of those meetings.I was thinking Michael Lee was an excepetion starting out riding so young,but obviously my memory is going!!! Edited October 8, 2018 by iris123 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ColinMills 1,728 Posted October 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, Barney Rabbit said: We're having facts, FACTS even, thrown at us to back up the pro argument but now conjecture is fine if facts hold up the anti argument. Woffinden came a purler with nothing on the line - he had two further rides to get the points needed to finish in the top eight - so why should we suppose things would have been different if the ride was important. More pressure (at that time, anything that happened in a sixth or seventh ride is irrelevant) could have affected him adversely, we don't know. What we do know is that, after five rides, Woffinden had not scored enough points to have won the Championship. FACT yes you are "allowed" a slip up....one off, it had to be nailed on, mechanic wise, rider wise, pressure wise Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barney Rabbit 713 Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, BWitcher said: You haven't provided a single fact to hold up the anti argument. Saturday night was not a World Final. The World Champion was not decided by the first five races on Saturday night. The winner of the GP was not decided by the winner of the first five races on Saturday night. As such your 'comparison' is irrelevant. More relevant than most of your 'comparisons' which are nothing more than supposition and yes, opinion, since there is no way one can actually put the riders being mentioned on the track together to find the real answer. At least, last Saturday, what I posted happened. Edited October 8, 2018 by Barney Rabbit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tyler42 150 Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, iris123 said: Don't remember that at all.I went to one grass track meeting in the mid 70s,but that was Kent or Surrey way.I do though remember we used to have the Kent junior grass track club do a second half each season.Think Dave Jessup turned out in one of those meetings It was a a Kent club meeting. Reg i think had quite a bit to do with the meeting. I remember youth riders riding after or before meetings on the grass track bikes at Plough Lane as well.............. That was such a Long time ago! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,314 Posted October 8, 2018 21 minutes ago, Barney Rabbit said: We're having facts, FACTS even, thrown at us to back up the pro argument but now conjecture is fine if facts hold up the anti argument. Woffinden came a purler with nothing on the line - he had two further rides to get the points needed to finish in the top eight - so why should we suppose things would have been different if the ride was important. More pressure (at that time, anything that happened in a sixth or seventh ride is irrelevant) could have affected him adversely, we don't know. What we do know is that, after five rides, Woffinden had not scored enough points to have won the Championship. FACT I haven't stated anything as being fact. You can't make direct comparisons though. Different type of meeting. Different mindset. Different time of the season. Different track even, maybe. I have already stated previously that at the first GP in September - the one most likely to have been World Final night - Tai scored 4 points. FACT. It doesn't make his win any less valid than Ivan Mauger scraping through a qualifying round and then winning a one-off final. Both were valid ways of deciding the World Champion, and both systems gave valid World Champions. Most of the riders who won under the one-off system would have also won titles under a GP system, and vice versa. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 8, 2018 13 minutes ago, Barney Rabbit said: More relevant than most of your 'comparisons' which are nothing more than supposition and yes, opinion, since there is no way one can actually put the riders being mentioned on the track together to find the real answer. At least, last Saturday, what I posted happened. What happened on Saturday destroyed your argument. Woffinden won the GP. He knew the rules and what was required and won it. End of story. Everything else is supposition on your part. I understand, it's difficult for you. Every piece of available factual evidence is against you so you have to get creative.. It's tough. One day you'll just realise you're wrong and can move on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites