Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

[BWitcher 12,453]

34 minutes ago, Midland Red said:

I don't believe I ever mentioned riders' averages - do try and keep track of who you're discussing with!

And . . . are you really convinced that you haven't stated any opinion?  I thought it was your opinions against the world!

There is no doubt that Tai has won three individual titles - fact

Opinions vary as to whether he is the best British rider of all time, and will continue to vary - you have yours (despite your apparent denial) and others have theirs

The several personal comments you have made on this particular thread over the days to various members do you a disservice as you try to bring us all round to your way of thinking

You may be right with your opinions - but that, at the end of the day, is all that they are

And yet again you post the same utter nonsense.

Opinions aren't being questioned. REASONING is and more significantly facts are being provided to show the reasoning is incorrect.

Now, when shown that your reasoning is false/flawed, a normal sane person would be inclined to reconsider said opinion. 

I am not trying to bring you around to any way of thinking. I have simply, as have others, stated what is the truth. If you wish to continue to be ignorant and pig headed, go ahead.

You've in an increasingly desperate attempt to justify your position have now moved onto claiming the following riders are better than Tai....

Brian Brett, Peter Craven, Nigel Boocock, Eric Boocock, Ray Wilson, Terry Betts, Kenny Carter, Simon Wigg, Malcolm Simmons, John Louis, Dave Jessup, Les Collins, Kelvin Tatum
 

The reason you claim is because they didn't have access to the backup that Tai has mechanically. It has been pointed out to you that this is utterly irrelevant. They would have had access to the same resources as other riders of their era, just as Tai has the same access to other riders of his era.

It has also been pointed out that MORE riders have access to the very best equipment now than in the past which basically renders your 'claim' redundant.

In an attempt to give you a chance to validate your opinion I have asked you, What does Tai have access too that other riders he is against do not? You have chosen to ignore that question.. it speaks volumes.

Edited October 17, 2018 by BWitcher

[waiheke1 4,295]

36 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

You've already stated numerous times you don't even watch on TV.

I don't need to even watch on Youtube to dismiss much of the nonsense you come out with... the multiple 10pt riders being the perfect case.

I'm still waiting to here about all the times genuine World Title contenders were eliminated in the British Final stage? Come on, you keep talking about it.. let's hear the list.

Jessup qualified from British final every year 77-82.

Lee qualified every year from 77-83 except for 82.

PC qualified every year from 73-80, except for the infamous 78.

[BWitcher 12,453]

33 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

Go on, I'll keep him busy for another minute or so.

When you have ridden your career on what type of machine and then, after a decade or so of professional retirement get on a completely different entity, it will be harder.

It could be like writing with your other hand, driving on the wrong side of the road or using a left-hand drive vehicle. 

Bless.

It might make sense if it wasn't for the fact that both Tatum and Ermolenko rode on changing machinery throughout their careers.

Modern bikes are far more volatile and unpredictable when a rider gets out of shape especially.

Edited October 17, 2018 by BWitcher

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv 10,692]

28 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

Go on, I'll keep him busy for another minute or so.

When you have ridden your career on what type of machine and then, after a decade or so of professional retirement get on a completely different entity, it will be harder.

It could be like writing with your other hand, driving on the wrong side of the road or using a left-hand drive vehicle. 

Chris Louis has also been vocal about how the modern machine rides

He has regularly ridden to test since his retirement and it isnt that it is simply harder for him to ride due to not doing it professionally anymore

He has said that the characteristics with the way the engines rev are now full throttle or nothing.

Old fashioned throttle control simply doesnt work as it did before hence riders becoming 'passengers' at times now in difficult situations and this despite their skills not the lack of skill

 

[iainb 4,962]

3 hours ago, moxey63 said:

Tatum would say that. He finished his career before the modern machines came about and it is al new to him, plus the few pounds he's added and age of course. But eh, if Kelvin says it... let's take it as read, despite constantly criticising what he and Nigel spout on about on a weekly basis. But if it backs your opinion, let's go for it.

 

 

That's wrong moxey, KT was still riding well into the modern machine era, still riding for arena in 2004... And being an engine tuner I would also suggest on pretty fast engines

[waiheke1 4,295]

1 hour ago, moxey63 said:

How is it strengthening Tai's case? 

As I said, Tai is the best British rider since he won the first title. You can't doubt that. But the competition has never been so weak.

 

I know, I keep saying it.

Ok I'll bite. With all the watching on tv you do. What is it that makes you think the Gordeevs were better than Safuydinov and Laguta? Stancl better than Zagar? P Crump better than Doyle? Plech Jancarz,Cieslak and Rembas better than Zmarzlik, Janowski, Dudek and Pawliki. Autrey better than Hancock. 

Simmons, Louis Mort Wyer vs Lindgren, Holder,Vaculik Cook i csn see arguments.

And Ican concede Mauger vs Nicki P. 

But I'm hoping you can enlighten me on the others. 

[Midland Red 2,383]

14 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

In an attempt to give you a chance to validate your opinion I have asked you, What does Tai have access too that other riders he is against do not? You have chosen to ignore that question.. it speaks volumes.

Answer = probably nothing.  Tai is World Champion (OOFC version) and clearly is the best in 2018.  Never disputed that.

Don't twist things your way.   

The riders I listed, I suggested they were names of some of a number of British riders who might well have been better riders than Tai - but we will never know, therefore it cannot be stated as A FACT that he is the best British rider of all time

If pushed, I would think Peter Craven, Michael Lee, Kenny Carter and Peter Collins WERE better than Tai - but we will never know, because circumstances and conditions have changed so much

There is NO FACT to prove that Tai is a better rider than those four

It is similar to an article I read this morning which states that Allison Becker (Liverpool) is the best goalkeeper in the Premier League this season - number of goals conceded suggest this, but I doubt that many would have an opinion that he is better than some of the others around - do the facts (goals conceded) outweigh opinions?  

[BWitcher 12,453]

2 minutes ago, Midland Red said:

Answer = probably nothing.  Tai is World Champion (OOFC version) and clearly is the best in 2018.  Never disputed that.

Don't twist things your way.   

The riders I listed, I suggested they were names of some of a number of British riders who might well have been better riders than Tai - but we will never know, therefore it cannot be stated as A FACT that he is the best British rider of all time

If pushed, I would think Peter Craven, Michael Lee, Kenny Carter and Peter Collins WERE better than Tai - but we will never know, because circumstances and conditions have changed so much

There is NO FACT to prove that Tai is a better rider than those four

It is similar to an article I read this morning which states that Allison Becker (Liverpool) is the best goalkeeper in the Premier League this season - number of goals conceded suggest this, but I doubt that many would have an opinion that he is better than some of the others around - do the facts (goals conceded) outweigh opinions?  

Now you are stating an opinion, that is fair enough.

I haven't twisted anything my way. You made the claim.. you now can't back it up and it turns out the claim was false.

So no we're just left you with you and your opinion with absolutely no reasoning behind it. It's a convincing argument.

By the way, I'm a better rider than anyone you've mentioned plus Mauger, Rickardsson, Nielsen, etc. 

[waiheke1 4,295]

 

When it seemed arguments could not get any weaker...

Number of goals conceded by a goalkeeper have never been considered the true barometer of a goalkeepers ability.

The world individual championship of speedway is typically considered the key indicator of a rider's ability, especially in the gp era. 

Are u really trying yo compare the two?

[BWitcher 12,453]

6 minutes ago, Midland Red said:

 

It is similar to an article I read this morning which states that Allison Becker (Liverpool) is the best goalkeeper in the Premier League this season - number of goals conceded suggest this, but I doubt that many would have an opinion that he is better than some of the others around - do the facts (goals conceded) outweigh opinions?  

Opinions are worthless without something to back it up.

I haven't seen the article, but goals conceded wouldn't be the strongest claim to being the best goalkeeper, nowhere close.

Edited October 17, 2018 by BWitcher

[waiheke1 4,295]

Would add at least we are now in realms of sensiblesness. PC x2 And Lee I can at leastcsee arguments as to why they might be considered better than Woffy.

Carter I'm struggling tbh, and this is as one of the biggest admirers of his ability. Only in 82 could u argue he was the best rider in the world. Tai has been 3 times. I'm certainly not convinced the standard of competition in 82 was higher than today. And Carter at his peak had arguably the quickest bikes in the world, which seems to contradict esrlier arguments about Woffy mechanical advantage...

[moxey63 1,785]

21 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Bless.

It might make sense if it wasn't for the fact that both Tatum and Ermolenko rode on changing machinery throughout their careers.

 

 

But they didn't have a 15-year gap away from racing and then have a go on the latest machine. Of course, you'd notice the difference.

[BWitcher 12,453]

5 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

But they didn't have a 15-year gap away from racing and then have a go on the latest machine. Of course, you'd notice the difference.

No. Ermolenko was constantly riding/testing bikes. 

He also regularly rode his 93 World Final bike as well as a modern machine and could easily compare the two. I know as I had a conversation with him about it, on the night he beat Darcy Ward, from the back

Edited: My apologies, I spoke to him about it after the Olympique, he beat Darcy the following year.

Edited October 17, 2018 by BWitcher

[Midland Red 2,383]

7 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Opinions are worthless without something to back it up.

I haven't seen the article, but goals conceded wouldn't be the strongest claim to being the best goalkeeper, nowhere close.

Totally agree - I'm only the "messenger" here, never touted it as my opinion

[BluTiger 21,660]

35 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Bless.

It might make sense if it wasn't for the fact that both Tatum and Ermolenko rode on changing machinery throughout their careers.

Modern bikes are far more volatile and unpredictable when a rider gets out of shape especially.

Chris Louis said in an interview published today...

“Are the bikes too fast? Not necessarily, but the characteristics of the bikes are all wrong. They are so unpredictable. Unless you are riding them flat out they can be problematic and as soon as you back off you’re in whole new territory.”