Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

[BWitcher 12,453]

You've never seen Tai race like that????

Jesus. Heat 3, PC is up against two average riders who'd be lucky to get a sniff of a Grand Prix place. He just goes round them, nice and easy as he should.

Heat 7 a much better race, but it's clear how much faster his equipment is...despite the claims made earlier in this thread. Can't take anything away though, brilliant ride.

Great riding but you really fail yourself when you claim you have 'never seen Tai race like that'.
 

And then the first race of this selection...
 

So now you have seen Woffinden ride like that.

Edited October 22, 2018 by BWitcher

[Vince 9,454]

How long before somebody says that Hancock let him through in the first race because they have the same sponsor?

[Aces51 2,778]

45 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

You've never seen Tai race like that????

Jesus. Heat 3, PC is up against two average riders who'd be lucky to get a sniff of a Grand Prix place. He just goes round them, nice and easy as he should.

Heat 7 a much better race, but it's clear how much faster his equipment is...despite the claims made earlier in this thread. Can't take anything away though, brilliant ride.

Great riding but you really fail yourself when you claim you have 'never seen Tai race like that'.
 

And then the first race of this selection...
 

So now you have seen Woffinden ride like that.

The difference is that Collins passed world class riders and left them for dead. If you had watched PC in 1976/77 you would realise it wasn't that he had better quality equipment than everyone else, others had just as good. He was just that outstanding when given a track with racing lines. At that time he was the best in the world, just as Tai is at the moment.

[BWitcher 12,453]

1 hour ago, Aces51 said:

The difference is that Collins passed world class riders and left them for dead. If you had watched PC in 1976/77 you would realise it wasn't that he had better quality equipment than everyone else, others had just as good. He was just that outstanding when given a track with racing lines. At that time he was the best in the world, just as Tai is at the moment.

Errr no.

Doug Wyer and Jiri Stancl were not 'World Class' riders.

I'm not disputing how good PC was, simply pointing out that once again the evidence provided is nonsense.

The examples I have posted show Woffinden hunting down and passing World Champions, including reigning ones on a variety of different size tracks... 

I find it incredulous that you can claim you have 'never seen Woffinden race like that'. Surely you must admit that statement is utter nonsense?

[BWitcher 12,453]

1 hour ago, Vince said:

How long before somebody says that Hancock let him through in the first race because they have the same sponsor?

Very true, never mind that though.. Hancock, the World Champion at the time wasn't a World Class rider like Jiri Stancl was!

[Tsunami 10,219]

10 hours ago, moxey63 said:

Here he is again, an adult in a full football kit. Grow up, man.

 

I would love it... love it... if you could find these posts in which I've said all that.

 

A lie is halfway around the forum before the truth has its pants on. 

What is the relevance of that observation ?

Once again in denial that you said it. I am a very grown up man, and still with full senses, unlike you with your convenient memory lapses. You kid no one.

[Aces51 2,778]

29 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Errr no.

Doug Wyer and Jiri Stancl were not 'World Class' riders.

I'm not disputing how good PC was, simply pointing out that once again the evidence provided is nonsense.

The examples I have posted show Woffinden hunting down and passing World Champions, including reigning ones on a variety of different size tracks... 

I find it incredulous that you can claim you have 'never seen Woffinden race like that'. Surely you must admit that statement is utter nonsense?

Wyer was world class in 1976. He finished 6th in the penultimate qualifier for the final, the Intercontinental Final, ahead of Autrey, John Louis, Michanek, Sanders, Olsen and other world class riders. In the final he finished 7th, above Autrey, Morton and Jancarz.

Stancl, you have more of an argument but he was good on the Polish tracks and finished 10th in the world, also above Morton and Jancarz.

As incredulous and utter nonsense as you may overly dramatically find it, I have not seen Woffinden pass world class riders and leave them for dead as Collins did. Indeed the evidence you put forward shows him not being able to do that.

Like you with Collins, I am not disputing how good Woffinden is but I have not seen him in his best years to date dominate riders in the way that Collins did in his best years.  That isn't to say that he won't at some stage or that he won't sustain his career at the very top for longer than PC managed to do. 

[orion 7,615]

8 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

Wyer was world class in 1976. He finished 6th in the penultimate qualifier for the final, the Intercontinental Final, ahead of Autrey, John Louis, Michanek, Sanders, Olsen and other world class riders. In the final he finished 7th, above Autrey, Morton and Jancarz.

Stancl, you have more of an argument but he was good on the Polish tracks and finished 10th in the world, also above Morton and Jancarz.

As incredulous and utter nonsense as you may overly dramatically find it, I have not seen Woffinden pass world class riders and leave them for dead as Collins did. Indeed the evidence you put forward shows him not being able to do that.

Like you with Collins, I am not disputing how good Woffinden is but I have not seen him in his best years to date dominate riders in the way that Collins did in his best years.  That isn't to say that he won't at some stage or that he won't sustain his career at the very top for longer than PC managed to do. 

I doubt Wyer and Stanci are anyone near the standard of riders Tai beats up week in week out in the Gp's ..to be honest it's shocking to behind them in the first place ..you can see how much Collins bikes are faster are  as well .

 

[chunky 6,090]

21 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

As incredulous and utter nonsense as you may overly dramatically find it, I have not seen Woffinden pass world class riders and leave them for dead as Collins did. Indeed the evidence you put forward shows him not being able to do that.

Like you with Collins, I am not disputing how good Woffinden is but I have not seen him in his best years to date dominate riders in the way that Collins did in his best years.  That isn't to say that he won't at some stage or that he won't sustain his career at the very top for longer than PC managed to do. 

You speak a lot of sense on the BSF - generally - but I have to disagree with your comments here. I have seen Woffinden make some amazing moves against world-class opposition and leave them standing. Maybe it doesn't look quite same, because of the track conditions, the machinery, and the generic riding styles today, but it has very much the same effect as some of the moves that PC used to make.

I deliberately truncated your post, but with regard to Doug Wyer, he was a great rider, and he had a great year in 1976. However, even that year, I do not feel he ever approached the level of riders like Simmons, Louis, or Sanders, let alone the level of PC, Olsen, or Mauger. That means I don't even put him alongside the likes of Janowski, Hancock, or the two Russians.

Steve

Edited October 22, 2018 by chunky

[Aces51 2,778]

That's fair enough Chunky, that's a reasonable point of view and your opinion, which I don't happen to share. I don't think you can compare riders from different eras. I think it's impossible to say whether Wyer in 1976 was as good as some of those you mention are today. That's why I don't say that PC was better than Woffinden but that at his best he dominated his contemporaries in a way that I haven't seen Tai do with his contemporaries. I suspect that we can both agree that PC and Tai were/are outstanding riders of their generation.

[fatface 2,552]

3 hours ago, Aces51 said:

The difference is that Collins passed world class riders and left them for dead. If you had watched PC in 1976/77 you would realise it wasn't that he had better quality equipment than everyone else, others had just as good. He was just that outstanding when given a track with racing lines. At that time he was the best in the world, just as Tai is at the moment.

Hmmm.

Many - like me - will never find themselves in the position of questioning Peter Collins as one of Britain's best ever. He was a great rider and few of his rivals could do some of the things he could do on a bike. But if we scrutinise in the same way Tai Woffinden's achievements and abilities are being scrutinised....then it's only fair to highlight that the arrival of the four valve Weslake in PC's World Final win was a factor in his - and indeed Malcolm Simmons's success - whilst the majority - including Mauger - were still aboard two valve Jawas. He also won a final in which the reigning champion and his biggest rival Olsen was missing, due to an engine failure and controversial exclusion at the Intercontinental

Neither of which is to say PC would not have won that day.  But if we are going to be scrupulous, let's be equally so with PC as we are with Tai Woffinden. 

[Grachan 7,361]

3 hours ago, Aces51 said:

The difference is that Collins passed world class riders and left them for dead. If you had watched PC in 1976/77 you would realise it wasn't that he had better quality equipment than everyone else, others had just as good. He was just that outstanding when given a track with racing lines. At that time he was the best in the world, just as Tai is at the moment.

I'm sure I remember PC saying in an interview that the bike he had in 1976 was so fast that he deliberately disguised it during practice - taking bad lines and so on - so that nobody would see how fast he was.

 

[Steve Shovlar 10,439]

Not sure how you can compare Collins to Woffinden. As a neutral who has seen both ride, there is no comparison. Woffinden is head and shoulders above Collins.

Back in the 70’s the standard was lower in the World Final compared to the GP series. Polish and eastern block riders were making up the numbers.

[BWitcher 12,453]

1 hour ago, Aces51 said:

Wyer was world class in 1976. He finished 6th in the penultimate qualifier for the final, the Intercontinental Final, ahead of Autrey, John Louis, Michanek, Sanders, Olsen and other world class riders. In the final he finished 7th, above Autrey, Morton and Jancarz.

Stancl, you have more of an argument but he was good on the Polish tracks and finished 10th in the world, also above Morton and Jancarz.

As incredulous and utter nonsense as you may overly dramatically find it, I have not seen Woffinden pass world class riders and leave them for dead as Collins did. Indeed the evidence you put forward shows him not being able to do that.

Like you with Collins, I am not disputing how good Woffinden is but I have not seen him in his best years to date dominate riders in the way that Collins did in his best years.  That isn't to say that he won't at some stage or that he won't sustain his career at the very top for longer than PC managed to do. 

Are you for real?

I've just shown you two races going from last to first, against the reigning World Champion and former World Champions in the other.

It's little wonder this thread descends into the farce it does when you took such utter bull.

So I take it back, it's not incredulous and utter nonsense for you to say you have not seen Woffinden pass world class riders and leave them for dead... It is an outright lie. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by BWitcher

[Aces51 2,778]

Falcace, I put on a video of the 76 final because that was readily available on YouTube but those races were only examples of his season long dominance. Those who regularly watched PC in 76/77 and I assume you did, saw how dominant he was week in, week out. The British League at that time included the best riders in the world, just as the Polish league does now but PC was not often beaten whereasTai is regularly beaten in that league. My point is that at his best PC dominated his peers to a greater extent than Tai has so far done. That doesn't make him better than Tai because we are back to the point that you can't compare eras, there are too many variables.

2 hours ago, Grachan said:

I'm sure I remember PC saying in an interview that the bike he had in 1976 was so fast that he deliberately disguised it during practice - taking bad lines and so on - so that nobody would see how fast he was.

 

I think your right, I recall something like that being said but in truth his performance in that final was the way he rode throughout that season and the following year. 

2 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Are you for real?

I've just shown you two races going from last to first, against the reigning World Champion and former World Champions in the other.

It's little wonder this thread descends into the farce it does when you took such utter bull.

That's your opinion, not a fact and your comments are ironic when it's usually your supercilious posts that cause threads to descend into farce. Perhaps better you let those who can debate like adults discuss matters.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Aces51