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iainb

Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

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23 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

The second part of Collins' career from 82-86 possibly diminished what had gone before. Had he enjoyed a little more luck, I guess we'd be asking today if Tai could equal his record of titles.

Any coincidence that the professionalism in the sport moved ahead massively in these years with the emergence of Nielsen and Gundersen?

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1 minute ago, iainb said:

Any coincidence that the professionalism in the sport moved ahead massively in these years with the emergence of Nielsen and Gundersen?

Yes its moved on to another level, back in the late 60s early 70s Mauger  & Olsen took it to a very high level of professionalism

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7 hours ago, g13webb said:

Of all the speedway periods I have watched, I do believe the 70's and 80's were the most enjoyable. but also the most defining time of bike technology    Racing then was so different where the emphasis was more on the rider than on the bike.   Racing was closer and more exciting,  and because the UK was the centre of the speedway world, every decent rider raced here regularly for various teams...       There is nowhere in the world that has the variation of tracks like we have here in England,  and that has a massive bearing when comparing riders of today against those of yesteryear.  

Once upon a time  a good rider could get on any bike and win,  but not now.  The machinery now has so much importance .A poor rider can  get on a quick bike and make himself look good. Todays bikes  are high revving speed machines that require a totally different skill than those of the past.   coupled that, to the track design

 

Not sure that is true.When Street developed his 4-valve both he and Crump were much faster than most until they managed to catch up.Crump took a whole 3 seconds off a track record in Australia and the amount of full maximums they got was pretty amazing.Street for the first couple of months of that season must have been on a high average until everything settled down.

It proved that the bike could make a decisive,even big difference even in the 70s

Edited by iris123

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If good riders could get on any bike and win in the 70s, why do people make excuses for Peter Collins display in the 78 British final...

And why did NZ use Ivans bikes for 14 of the 16 heats in the 79 final if average riders couldn't go better on quick bikes?

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I think the year that someone put sugar in the fuel tank of PC at British final (1978 I think) could have had a psychological effect on PC.  Didn't seem the same after that.

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1 minute ago, iris123 said:

Not sure that is true.When Street developed his 4-valve both he and Crump were much faster than most until they managed to catch up.Crimp took a whole 3 seconds of a track record in Australia and the amount of full maximims they got was pretty amazing.Street for the first couple of months of that season must have been on a high average until everything settled down.

It proved that the bike could make a decisive,even bog difference even in the 70s

That was the start of the technology that put more emphasis on the bikes.   Back in 1973 when Kings Lynn were riding against Newport,  Street and Crumpy came to Saddlebow Road with two new inventions  'the Street 4 valvers'. They were ridiculous quick that  gave them almighty advantage. It wasn't so much that Crump scored a maximum but the distance he won by.   Neil Street, although getting on in years was still a competent competitor who raced to 11 points..   Sitting in the pits with Terry Betts during the interval,  he suggested the bikes should be banned, because if not, every rider would have to get one.  and that's going to cost the fans more money...  

By the time Lee started back in '75,   4 valvers were in full swing.     The 2 valves died an instant death...       Jawa,  Weslakes and  GM were all the rage, but they were never tuned to the levels they are today.    Back in the mid 70's most riders rode standard bikes it was only the privilege few  that had works machinery….

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2 minutes ago, g13webb said:

That was the start of the technology that put more emphasis on the bikes.   Back in 1973 when Kings Lynn were riding against Newport,  Street and Crumpy came to Saddlebow Road with two new inventions  'the Street 4 valvers'. They were ridiculous quick that  gave them almighty advantage. It wasn't so much that Crump scored a maximum but the distance he won by.   Neil Street, although getting on in years was still a competent competitor who raced to 11 points..   Sitting in the pits with Terry Betts during the interval,  he suggested the bikes should be banned, because if not, every rider would have to get one.  and that's going to cost the fans more money...  

By the time Lee started back in '75,   4 valvers were in full swing.     The 2 valves died an instant death...       Jawa,  Weslakes and  GM were all the rage, but they were never tuned to the levels they are today.    Back in the mid 70's most riders rode standard bikes it was only the privilege few  that had works machinery….

Not sure that all makes sense,Plus I don’t think it was 1973 was it?Crump was out pretty early that season and was in your team!! 

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1 minute ago, iris123 said:

Not sure that all makes sense,Plus I don’t think it was 1973 was it?Crump was out pretty early that season and was in your team!! 

Could have been 74,   thought he moved from Lynn early 73 ,   but  will check    :t:

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27 minutes ago, iris123 said:

Not sure that is true.When Street developed his 4-valve both he and Crump were much faster than most until they managed to catch up.Crimp took a whole 3 seconds of a track record in Australia and the amount of full maximims they got was pretty amazing.Street for the first couple of months of that season must have been on a high average until everything settled down.

It proved that the bike could make a decisive,even bog difference even in the 70s

Somerton Park wasn't the best track to overtake on either with its four corners. That together with the advantage the 4 valves had from the start made the pair nearly unbeatable 

 

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1 hour ago, moxey63 said:

It is also worth remembering that Collins had been forced to retire through injury at the age two years younger than Woffinden is now. He was just 26 when he damaged his shoulder at Cradley in 1980 and forced him to retire from racing until 1982. He was never the same. Prior to his Dudley Wood accident in conditions that shouldn't have seen speedway raced, Collins had suffered a share of misfortune in World Finals and could have won from 1975-79. The second part of Collins' career from 82-86 possibly diminished what had gone before. Had he enjoyed a little more luck, I guess we'd be asking today if Tai could equal his record of titles.

And tbf when assessing Pcs greatness I think most factor those things in. He was the best rider in the world in 76&77 And arguably would have won a gp series in both years. And you rightly say he could have won more but for the injury which saw him  drop from being world class to more an international class (world top 20 rather than top 10) rider. At the same time in 80 you could argue he had been overtaken by the new generation of Lee and Penhall.

People talk about Tais era being weak, but the era Gundersen and Nielsen dominated was marked by rge number of world class riders whose careers were prematurely curtailed or otherwise hampered - Penhall, Carter, Lee,Sigalos,Sanders plus Collins never the same after injury, the Morans never professional enough. 

I've also seen people say Mauger only started winning world titles once Briggs was past his best...

Anyway, Tai the greatest brit for me,  narrowly ahead of the two PCs then Lee. 

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24 minutes ago, iainb said:

Wouldn't of said he dominated though... No commonwealth final, no overseas final

So he didn't dominate because he didn't win events that weren't held.

 

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14 minutes ago, g13webb said:

That was the start of the technology that put more emphasis on the bikes.   Back in 1973 when Kings Lynn were riding against Newport,  Street and Crumpy came to Saddlebow Road with two new inventions  'the Street 4 valvers'. They were ridiculous quick that  gave them almighty advantage. It wasn't so much that Crump scored a maximum but the distance he won by.   Neil Street, although getting on in years was still a competent competitor who raced to 11 points..   Sitting in the pits with Terry Betts during the interval,  he suggested the bikes should be banned, because if not, every rider would have to get one.  and that's going to cost the fans more money...  

By the time Lee started back in '75,   4 valvers were in full swing.     The 2 valves died an instant death...       Jawa,  Weslakes and  GM were all the rage, but they were never tuned to the levels they are today.    Back in the mid 70's most riders rode standard bikes it was only the privilege few  that had works machinery….

If only the privileged few had works machinery - how does this correlate with claims tgat Tai only wins because he had fast bikes. Which all riders have.

When in the 70s it was only your Maugers, Olsen and Collins...

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3 minutes ago, MARK246 said:

Somerton Park wasn't the best track to overtake on either with its four corners. That together with the advantage the 4 valves had from the start made the pair nearly unbeatable 

 

I only went there the once.A bank holiday early the season and they were amazing,especially considering Street was a sort of Reg Luckhurst/Bert Harkins standard really

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6 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

So he didn't dominate because he didn't win events that weren't held.

 

Genuine question, why wasn't he picked for the pairs for England that year?

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1 hour ago, sommelier said:

Whilst I agree with you regarding PC & Morton at the NSS, NEVER forget also just how good Chris Pusey was, very underestimated rider.

Remember my parents taking me to a grass track in the very early 70s to watch PC, Pusey just blew him away!!

Pusey was a very good rider. I think that he could have achieved far more than he did but he lacked the professionalism and dedication. 

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