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iainb

Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

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2 hours ago, Fred Flange said:

I agree that woffinden was less affected by Wards injury than Holder, that was the point, but I don't agree that someone who copes well with post traumatic stress is necessarily 'better' than someone who doesn't? 

I think it certainly makes him a better sportsman... Which is what we're discussing here, to suggest that Holder is not as good after Wards injury just to me suggests that Tai is better at what he does than Holder is and don't forget he had to deal with the death of his father

Edited by iainb
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3 hours ago, Fred Flange said:

Onion suggesting Ward didn't have the brain power, lol!

I think I see what you mean about woffinden and how he used his skill to plot his way into the torun fence while not taking risks?

I agree that woffinden was less affected by Wards injury than Holder, that was the point, but I don't agree that someone who copes well with post traumatic stress is necessarily 'better' than someone who doesn't? 

It absolutely isn't ridiculous to suggest it either, quite the opposite in fact.

I would argue that it does.

Take Peter Collins as an example. He was so affected by the death of Tommy Jansson that he didn't turn up for a meeting afterwards. But later the same year he won the World title.

It's all a part of the mental strength that makes you a champion.

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4 hours ago, Fred Flange said:

 

I agree that woffinden was less affected by Wards injury than Holder, that was the point, but I don't agree that someone who copes well with post traumatic stress is necessarily 'better' than someone who doesn't? 

It absolutely isn't ridiculous to suggest it either, quite the opposite in fact.

Of course it is. 

The ability to recover mentally from a crash, the ability to recover mentally from seeing others in a crash, these are ingredients that can make one rider more successful than another. There are many riders over the years who were 'never the same' after a crash, not always a major injury either. 

Sam Ermolenko for instance came back better than ever from his horror smash in 89, whereas someone like Joe Screen was never quite the same after his bad leg break.

With regards to Wolves riders, Mikael Max had a crash in Australia at the end of the GP, he was never close to being the same rider again, whereas Freddie Lindgren had similar crashes and came back even better.

So no, it's far from 'ridiculous', it's a major ingredient.

Edited by BWitcher
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I feel that Holder was never the same after his bad crash at Coventry (was it the year after he won the world title?).

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2 hours ago, Chadster said:

I feel that Holder was never the same after his bad crash at Coventry (was it the year after he won the world title?).

Yes was 2013 the season after winning the World title. Agree, Holder never the same after that terrible crash at Coventry. Followed by the tragic injury to his best mate and bitter family break up - it’s been a tough few years since the glory of 2012. 

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23 hours ago, Fred Flange said:

The point is Holder hasn't been in the running since Ward's injury. How can it be considered ridiculous to suggest that the drop in Holders form was due to what happened to Ward? It is as I said the complete opposite. 

 

I think you have misunderstood what people are saying.

Nobody is saying Darcy's injury didn't affect Chris Holder. What people are saying is that the ability to overcome an obstacle such as that is part of determining how great a rider is - such as Peter Collins overcoming his own fears that he had in the immediate aftermath of Tommy Jansson's accident.

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Another ingredient is luck. Someone like Greg Hancock for instance has been able to ride for as long as he has because he has managed, for the most part, to avoid serious injury. Now much of that is down to the way he rides, but even the safest of riders can be wiped out by others.

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14 hours ago, Fred Flange said:

Sorry, when I read...

I thought that meant it was ridiculous to suggest wards injury affected holder how I had suggested.

Thanks for clearing it up.

I still don't think it made woofinden a better rider or better sportsman? I didn't see an improvement in his riding ability, I'd say it was about the same.

Wards injury obviously finished his career and the affect it had on holder was similar to the effect the injury PC had at Cradley, when Gundersen lost control and badly smashed up PC's shoulder, effectively ending his career as a true world title contender.

Yes remember the occasion when the track was deemed unfit for racing initially and the meeting was postponed during the morning. However thru', I believe, the intervention of the BSPA that decision was overturned and the meeting went ahead despite reservations by those directly involved and the subsequent injury PC received and still has problems with today apparently.

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17 hours ago, Fred Flange said:

Sorry, when I read...

I thought that meant it was ridiculous to suggest wards injury affected holder how I had suggested.

Thanks for clearing it up.

I still don't think it made woofinden a better rider or better sportsman? I didn't see an improvement in his riding ability, I'd say it was about the same.

Wards injury obviously finished his career and the affect it had on holder was similar to the effect the injury PC had at Cradley, when Gundersen lost control and badly smashed up PC's shoulder, effectively ending his career as a true world title contender.

That's the whole point, some riders over the years have been able to cope with such things better, meaning they go on to achieve more success in their career. It's an important ingredient to the longevity and success of a career as I mentioned earlier.

Take Ermolenko and his injuries in 89. For many riders that would have been the end or they would have come back a shell of the rider they once were, yet he came back even better. He then had a further smash at the end of 93 and broke his leg again and was never quite the same again.

 

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2 minutes ago, Fred Flange said:

Yes, I know?

It's like being in a race with three people and one opponent has to pull out completely and another is so upset over something he isn't able to compete at the same level. You're no better but once your two main challengers are out of the running your chances of winning are improved a bit.

I'm sure emolenkos opponents had a slightly easier time of it when he was out of the running due to his injuries.

No, not like that at all.

Two riders have a crash and get injured. One is mentally strong enough to overcome it and resume his career at a higher level, the other isn't. 

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Had to laugh in this weeks "star" calling himself the greatest british rider, i have only been watching my fav sport for 50 yrs and could rattle off loads who i think are better anyone agree?

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Despite over 60 pages discussing this topic,someone  just started the basic thing all over again,asking for peoples opinions.I had to laugh.Anyone else agree ?

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5 minutes ago, iris123 said:

Despite over 60 pages discussing this topic,someone  just started the basic thing all over again,asking for peoples opinions.I had to laugh.Anyone else agree ?

When i grow up i hope i am as clever as u as i didnt see the previous links otherwise wouldnt have started another one !

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6 minutes ago, geoff100 said:

When i grow up i hope i am as clever as u as i didnt see the previous links otherwise wouldnt have started another one !

Not about being clever,just following the forum guidelines ya know

 Starting Topics

Before you start a thread, check to see if a similar thread has already been started. Duplicate threads will be closed. Please make your title descriptive, reflecting the topic you're addressing, rather than a generic title such as "Question" or "I Need Help."

 

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On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 10:16 AM, BWitcher said:

That's the whole point, some riders over the years have been able to cope with such things better, meaning they go on to achieve more success in their career. It's an important ingredient to the longevity and success of a career as I mentioned earlier.

Take Ermolenko and his injuries in 89. For many riders that would have been the end or they would have come back a shell of the rider they once were, yet he came back even better. He then had a further smash at the end of 93 and broke his leg again and was never quite the same again.

 

Sam's comeback from the '89 injury was remarkable.

But maybe he wasn't as hungry enough to do it after the '93 smash, as he was already World Champion.

So there's maybe a parallel between him and Chris Holder, as one-time World Champions who lost their mojo after winning a single title. Gary Havelock could also be added to that list.

It takes someone truly remarkable to win three or four or five or six titles.  Very few years have had the mixture of determination and ability to do that.

Edited by lucifer sam

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