Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

[fatface 2,549]

28 minutes ago, lucifer sam said:

But a Grand Prix series has always been about consistency, and Hans wasn't riding in enough meetings by 1996 to maintain that consistency. 

He was actually past his best...and yet still performing at the very sharp end after nigh on 20 years. Kudos.

[fatface 2,549]

On 3/11/2019 at 9:28 AM, geoff100 said:

Peter collins chris morton , jessup , mike lee, i could go on it has never been easier to become world champion u get 10 go,s a season and u dont need to win a final  grand prix race to win the title, how would mr superstar have managed in a good old one night final.anyway dont need to bother with him now having won it 3 times he wont compete so someone else can have a go!

Jeez, that's a stretch. I grew up on a healthy diet of PC and Mort. But to suggest they were better than Tai Woffinden is bordering on silly.

There's a credible case for PC having equal or more natural talent than Tai. But in every other facet, he wins everytime.

[BluTiger 21,661]

Michael Lee is the best British rider ever imho ...

[lucifer sam 3,953]

27 minutes ago, falcace said:

He was actually past his best...and yet still performing at the very sharp end after nigh on 20 years. Kudos.

 

That too, although I do think he missed riding in the UK at a time most of his rivals were.  Still, he’d been over here for 18 years and wanted to return home to raise his young family.

I don’t think Hamill would have got near Nielsen in his prime.  The only man capable of beating Hans at his prime was Erik.  As much as I loved the old one-off World Final, it would have been very interesting to see those two going hammer-and-tong over a full season.  Naturally, I’m biased towards Hans and think he would have won most of the championships under a GP system (whatever the format), but I also recognise it wouldn’t have been a complete shoe-in.

I also think that, paradoxically, it’s Erik’s accident that cost Hans more titles than Erik. Hans was on top at the time of Erik’s accident, having won three out of the last four championships, but he lost his edge after Erik got hurt. Maybe it was only 1-2% of his overall performance.  But, as Woffy said the other week when I went to see him in the talk at Scunny, at the top level 1% or 0.5% can be everything.  

 

[customhouseregular 1,651]

totally impossible to compare due to many factors...machinery, track differences, strength of competition, different racing formats, curtailed careers etc.

3 World Championships makes Tai the most successful but not necessarily the best British rider. I would venture Peter Craven who but for his untimely death I feel would have won more titlesn in an era when winning was more difficult.

[iris123 20,935]

1 minute ago, customhouseregular said:

totally impossible to compare due to many factors...machinery, track differences, strength of competition, different racing formats, curtailed careers etc.

3 World Championships makes Tai the most successful but not necessarily the best British rider. I would venture Peter Craven who but for his untimely death I feel would have won more titlesn in an era when winning was more difficult.

Why was winning more difficult in that era? I think all champs from that era were multiple champs,which sort of makes it seem it was easy.If lots of riders only won 1 title I would say you have a point

[customhouseregular 1,651]

Injury in a qualifying round could mean not reaching the final. A fall or engine failure in a rider's first heat of the final could end his title hopes. Misfortune could play a big part.

Once in the GP series a rider has 10 chances. He can miss a round through injury or not win a single GP and still win the title.

[Grachan 7,314]

2 minutes ago, customhouseregular said:

Injury in a qualifying round could mean not reaching the final. A fall or engine failure in a rider's first heat of the final could end his title hopes. Misfortune could play a big part.

Once in the GP series a rider has 10 chances. He can miss a round through injury or not win a single GP and still win the title.

You could easily flip that to say that an injury to a rider can give a lesser rider a greater chance of winning, thus making it easier to win a one-off final if you are not the best in the World.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Grachan

[fatface 2,549]

26 minutes ago, lucifer sam said:

 

That too, although I do think he missed riding in the UK at a time most of his rivals were.  Still, he’d been over here for 18 years and wanted to return home to raise his young family.

I don’t think Hamill would have got near Nielsen in his prime.  The only man capable of beating Hans at his prime was Erik.  As much as I loved the old one-off World Final, it would have been very interesting to see those two going hammer-and-tong over a full season.  Naturally, I’m biased towards Hans and think he would have won most of the championships under a GP system (whatever the format), but I also recognise it wouldn’t have been a complete shoe-in.

I also think that, paradoxically, it’s Erik’s accident that cost Hans more titles than Erik. Hans was on top at the time of Erik’s accident, having won three out of the last four championships, but he lost his edge after Erik got hurt. Maybe it was only 1-2% of his overall performance.  But, as Woffy said the other week when I went to see him in the talk at Scunny, at the top level 1% or 0.5% can be everything.  

 

I think there is a lot of truth in that. 

Of the list I gave above earlier of those lost to the sport prematurely, the biggest imponderable is Dennis Sigalos. By 1983, I'd have had him, Nielsen and - for one final season - Lee as the world's best riders. But he never did get the chance to capitalise on his talent. From 84-89, Erik and Hans were undisputable 1 and 2. But I reckon a fit Sigalos would have been right in the mix.

[one of clubs 116]

Tai three individual world titles to his name. That is it. Nothing more at all to speak of. Could not be arsed to turn out for his country. Best ever?, no way.

 

[Bagpuss 10,757]

Nothing to do with being arsed though was it? He was in dispute (not the first) with the governing body about professionalism and trying to win. Thankfully they saw that he was right in the end. 

I don’t particularly agree with him missing British Finals but on the whole he is top class and yes the best we have ever had. 

[lucifer sam 3,953]

28 minutes ago, one of clubs said:

Tai three individual world titles to his name. That is it. Nothing more at all to speak of. Could not be arsed to turn out for his country. Best ever?, no way.

 

Ivan Mauger missed riding for New Zealand for four successive seasons in the World Team Cup.  He came back into the competition in 1979 in great style, inspiring his team-mates to win the competition.

 

[lucifer sam 3,953]

47 minutes ago, falcace said:

I think there is a lot of truth in that. 

Of the list I gave above earlier of those lost to the sport prematurely, the biggest imponderable is Dennis Sigalos. By 1983, I'd have had him, Nielsen and - for one final season - Lee as the world's best riders. But he never did get the chance to capitalise on his talent. From 84-89, Erik and Hans were undisputable 1 and 2. But I reckon a fit Sigalos would have been right in the mix.

Before Oxford moved up in 1984, Sigalos was my favourite of the top riders.  To me, Hans and Erik moved up a gear in 1983, moved up again in 1984, and moved up once more in 1985. I'm not sure if Dennis Sigalos would have been on quite the same level as the two Danes.

[chunky 6,085]

1 hour ago, one of clubs said:

Tai three individual world titles to his name. That is it. Nothing more at all to speak of. Could not be arsed to turn out for his country. Best ever?, no way.

 

Three World Championships, plus a second and a third. More than any other British rider. In a six year period.

A superb performance in the Speedway of Nations final. Far more impressive than PC's three WTC maximums against largely inferior opponents.

I'm so sorry Tai didn't win the Internationale, Brandonapolis, Superama, Yorkshire TV Trophy, Golden Hammer etc...

Steve

[chunky 6,085]

3 hours ago, Milankovitch said:

Michael Lee is the best British rider ever imho ...

A candidate, certainly. However, it is difficult to prove when a rider doesn't have the titles, and greatest potential/natural ability doesn't mean the best.

I am sure some will feel that Kenny Carter was the best.  Supremely talented, but never made a World Final Rostrum. Same with Joe Screen.

Steve