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iainb

Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

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54 minutes ago, mickthemuppet said:

Under the old World Championship the most successful  rider was Freddie Williams with two world championships and one runner's up. But then it was open to all riders and not like today when it is only a few are allowed to enter

...and every final was held on his home track...

Steve

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Posted (edited)

Could be said that Peter Craven was more successful then Freddie Williams. PC won 2, 3rd twice, 4th twice, and appeared in 10 finals compared with FW 5 final appearances.

Plus Craven won medals in the World team, 2x 2nd, and 2x 3rd, Freddie none.

So you can make a case for greatest from all round success rather then WC wins.

Then of course there was Peter Collins...…..

Apart from being world champ '76 and 2nd '77 (arguably could/should have been more)

World Pairs  4x winner, 1x 2nd

World Team 5x winner, 3x 2nd

World Long Tack 1x 2nd, 2x 3rd, 1x 4th, 1x 5th

Of course, just getting in a World Team or World Pairs was tough in those days, so many top riders for GB

Argument could be put forward that Tai has some catching up (although 3x world champ is very good on his CV)

Edited by OveFundinFan
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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

Could be said that Peter Craven was more successful then Freddie Williams. PC won 2, 3rd twice, 4th twice, and appeared in 10 finals compared with FW 5 final appearances.

Plus Craven won medals in the World team, 2x 2nd, and 2x 3rd, Freddie none.

So you can make a case for greatest from all round success rather then WC wins.

Then of course there was Peter Collins...…..

...or British League successes. I'm of the John Berry ilk. I don't just grade great riders on individual championships alone but their all round contribution whether as an individual or a team player.

However can't comment on Tai as I've never seen him ride but saw his dad, Rob, often.

Edited by steve roberts

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2 hours ago, mickthemuppet said:

Under the old World Championship the most successful  rider was Freddie Williams with two world championships and one runner's up. But then it was open to all riders and not like today when it is only a few are allowed to enter

Who do you think is missing from the current series that could win a Championship. On the other hand under the old system you could have a potential winner out of the World Championship in the first round.

I went to some of the Wembley finals and while they were great occasions there was a deal of luck involved with gate positions let alone mechanical problems or injuries and don't ever forget it was possible to buy points off those who had a bad night toward the end of the meeting.. Great events but not the best way to find the worlds best rider that year in my opinion.

One other thing to remember was that Wembley World finals didn't produce much in the way of great racing, certainly in these days of instant comment they would be slaughtered as race meetings.

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1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

The GP series is basically an 'invitation' series of meetings as was often stated by no greater rider than Ivan Mauger himself.

But it isn’t.You have to qualify for the GPs just as for most sporting championships.The qualification specifications are set out beforehand.It doesn’t make it any less a proper world championship because Hancock can’t get knocked out in some quali round and Ben Barker can somehow fluke a decent meeting on his home track and make i through

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1 hour ago, chunky said:

...and every final was held on his home track...

Steve

But he had qualifying rounds at Belle Vue and West Ham (Which he also won) to get to Wembley in 1950

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3 minutes ago, mickthemuppet said:

But he had qualifying rounds at Belle Vue and West Ham (Which he also won) to get to Wembley in 1950

But nothing in Sweden,Poland,Russia,Germany and not even in Glasgow!!!

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46 minutes ago, iris123 said:

But it isn’t.You have to qualify for the GPs just as for most sporting championships.The qualification specifications are set out beforehand.It doesn’t make it any less a proper world championship because Hancock can’t get knocked out in some quali round and Ben Barker can somehow fluke a decent meeting on his home track and make i through

...How many automatically qualify for the following year's competition based on their overall finishing position? 

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55 minutes ago, iris123 said:

But it isn’t.You have to qualify for the GPs just as for most sporting championships.The qualification specifications are set out beforehand.It doesn’t make it any less a proper world championship because Hancock can’t get knocked out in some quali round and Ben Barker can somehow fluke a decent meeting on his home track and make i through

Even today's GP closed shop is better than the old inter & continental final qualifiers where token quali spots were given to Eastern block countries effectively making the one off world final a 10 (ish) horse race

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6 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...How many automatically qualify for the following year's competition based on their overall finishing position? 

Doesn’t matter.You said the magic word ‘qualify’!! Only a very small proportion are picked.Who qualifies in F1?How many qualify in Tennis or are there qualification rounds in the world cycling championship?Speedway at least has a quali route

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Just now, iris123 said:

Doesn’t matter.You said the magic word ‘qualify’!! Only a very small proportion are picked.Who qualifies in F1?How many qualify in Tennis or are there qualification rounds in the world cycling championship?Speedway at least has a quali route

...that's not the question I asked. I was generally interested in knowing what the number was as I have no idea.

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1 minute ago, steve roberts said:

...that's not the question I asked. I was generally interested in knowing what the number was as I have no idea.

Er you said it is basically an invitation series without even knowing how many qualify?!?!?!?!

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Posted (edited)

No getting away from it winning ( I am sure he will ) 3 titles will be a great achievement for Tai as it would for any rider regardless of his nationality ,I don't care where a rider is from I am more interested in their riding style myself and the way in which they conduct themselves on the track .As to him being the greatest british rider of all time that is a matter of opinion and depends how you measure it , I am not great Tai fan but do believe he is a extremely talented rider and should be given the respect he deserves within the sport. I wish him well for tomorrow night but will be rooting for  Zmarzilk,  I love his style and he never knows when he is beaten .

Edited by FAST GATER
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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, iainb said:

Even today's GP closed shop is better than the old inter & continental final qualifiers where token quali spots were given to Eastern block countries effectively making the one off world final a 10 (ish) horse race

...If I recalll towards the latter days of the one-off World Finals it was decided to run with two semi-finals so as to allow a better system of qualification rather than he old sysem of running a Continental Final which allowed a direct route for the Eastern Bloc countries. Not sure how many years that ran for before the GPs kicked in?

Edited by steve roberts
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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, iris123 said:

Er you said it is basically an invitation series without even knowing how many qualify?!?!?!?!

...I recall that there was a Grand Prix Challenge that allowed a number to qualify but that a certain number retained their place based on finishing positions. Is that still the system in place today or is  it more complex than that which allows competitors to compete in a series of qualifying meetings? (one question mark!) It's a point that Ivan Mauger was always keen to highlight in the past whenever the subject was broached.

Edited by steve roberts

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