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Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

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37 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

It's a false argument though really.

Once one incident/moment is changed, everything thereafter changes so there is no guarantee that he would have won the subsequent titles, likewise he may have won more.

My exact point. It's incredible to think how ONE small change would have affected so much later.

What if Peter Craven had broken the tapes in what turned out to be his final race? That affects the World Championship for years to come, not just the results, but even qualification, because we now have an extra person in the mix.

Digressing slightly for a moment, here's the effect it has...

I am sitting here writing this in Loveland, Ohio, because my dad's car wouldn't start - on the morning of March 15, 1971! Sounds crazy, doesn't it?

Had the car started, he wouldn't have had to ride his motorbike to work, and he wouldn't have been hit by a car on the way home, smashing his leg. Had that not happened, he would have carried on playing cricket, would never have taken darts seriously and turned professional, and I would never have taken up darts as a career. Had I not played darts, I wouldn't have travelled to the US, and then moved here!

Thing is, now think of what MIGHT have happened. I would have stayed in the UK. I could have been driving to a speedway meeting, and got in a car crash with, say, Gary Havelock in 1992. He might have been injured badly enough to stop him qualifying for the 1992 World Final.

I know it sounds crazy, but one small change in my own personal history can have a monumental effect, not just on my life, but on the lives of others...

Steve

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14 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

Good point.

Yes, both Sanders and Carter had peaked.  In the case of Carter, he peaked in 1982 at the age of 21. He could look quite ordinary by 1985. I remember him score just a point in an England v Denmark test match at Oxford.   

Sanders had not peaked in my opinion he was just approaching it the two years before his demise he really had upped his game.

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6 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Sanders had not peaked in my opinion he was just approaching it the two years before his demise he really had upped his game.

Conjecture...

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4 minutes ago, chunky said:

Conjecture...

I think in his last year up until his death he was averaging around 11.50 ish and in the World Pairs at Gothenburg excluding the fall he was outstanding ironic that  Guglielmi was his partner.

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56 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I think in his last year up until his death he was averaging around 11.50 ish and in the World Pairs at Gothenburg excluding the fall he was outstanding ironic that  Guglielmi was his partner.

Yes, but it was mid April, that’s a world away from having that average in Sept. Morton, Carter etc were also usually up in the mid 11s at that stage of the season. 

His best chance was in 84 on a track he rode brilliantly with a wide open field and he was inexplicably poor. At aged 29-34, was he really set to challenge the Danes from 85-89? I don’t see it.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

Sanders had not peaked in my opinion he was just approaching it the two years before his demise he really had upped his game.

I would agree Sid. Billy was riding as good as ever during 1983/84 and one can only wonder how his later career would have panned out. I still recall hearing the news and felt numb on hearing it. A great loss to the sport.

Edited by steve roberts

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4 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I would agree Sid. Billy was riding as good as ever during 1983/84 and one can only wonder how his later career would have panned out. I still recall hearing the news and felt numb on hearing it. A great loss to the sport.

All that hard graft and dedication he put in coming over here from the age of 16 wasted.I loved watching him ride Steve and that is coming from a avid Crump snr fan.

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19 minutes ago, falcace said:

Yes, but it was mid April, that’s a world away from having that average in Sept. Morton, Carter etc were also usually up in the mid 11s at that stage of the season. 

His best chance was in 84 on a track he rode brilliantly with a wide open field and he was inexplicably poor. At aged 29-34, was he really set to challenge the Danes from 85-89? I don’t see it.

I think so he was really believing in himself and as Ivan and Hancock have proved age is no barrier.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, falcace said:

Yes, but it was mid April, that’s a world away from having that average in Sept. Morton, Carter etc were also usually up in the mid 11s at that stage of the season. 

His best chance was in 84 on a track he rode brilliantly with a wide open field and he was inexplicably poor. At aged 29-34, was he really set to challenge the Danes from 85-89? I don’t see it.

I agree.  Billy's big chance was around his favourite track in 1984, and he was nowhere near.  He'd already been well-and-truly eclipsed by Gundersen and Nielsen in that meeting.

Edited by lucifer sam

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4 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I think so he was really believing in himself and as Ivan and Hancock have proved age is no barrier.

How do you know that?

Obviously - tragically - he was a man in a very bad place mentally.

Would a notoriously homesick Sanders have pushed on towards his 40s? Did he have the same unquenchable desire and ability as those notable exceptions Mauger and Hancock? Sorry Sidney, I can't buy that one.

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Just now, falcace said:

How do you know that?

Obviously - tragically - he was a man in a very bad place mentally.

Would a notoriously homesick Sanders have pushed on towards his 40s? Did he have the same unquenchable desire and ability as those notable exceptions Mauger and Hancock? Sorry Sidney, I can't buy that one.

Have to agree with you on Billy Saunders. Even in 1983/84, when he was being talked about as a contender at the start of televised meetings, I never really saw it.

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16 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Ah Bless.

You realise he flew out the gate in that race before losing concentration as his dream was already secured. It was actually his third bike on the night, also one of the engines that carried him to an 11+ average that season.

Seems someone is harboring a grudge :)

Quite possibly, i certainly wouldn't rule that out ....

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5 hours ago, falcace said:

How do you know that?

Obviously - tragically - he was a man in a very bad place mentally.

Would a notoriously homesick Sanders have pushed on towards his 40s? Did he have the same unquenchable desire and ability as those notable exceptions Mauger and Hancock? Sorry Sidney, I can't buy that one.

He wasnt in a bad place racing wise Falcace, he was doing great and really going forward in his career.His personal life who knows what was going on but those two years up until his death he really was maturing.Also you were a huge Sigalos fan like myself i believe Sigalos was a class act yet Sanders was on par with Sigalos easily.Norden 83 Sigalos disappointing Sanders placed and there is a arguement. that Billy should of been HARDER on Muller in 83 when he had every chance Siggy was  pretty poor in Norden..Also 85 if Sanders had got there Bradford would of been fine for him he would of loved it.My point really Falcace is with Penhall, Lee, Sigalos, Carter, gone it really opened up nicely for the three danes including Knudsen as well.

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16 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

He wasnt in a bad place racing wise Falcace, he was doing great and really going forward in his career.His personal life who knows what was going on but those two years up until his death he really was maturing.Also you were a huge Sigalos fan like myself i believe Sigalos was a class act yet Sanders was on par with Sigalos easily.Norden 83 Sigalos disappointing Sanders placed and there is a arguement. that Billy should of been HARDER on Muller in 83 when he had every chance Siggy was  pretty poor in Norden..Also 85 if Sanders had got there Bradford would of been fine for him he would of loved it.My point really Falcace is with Penhall, Lee, Sigalos, Carter, gone it really opened up nicely for the three danes including Knudsen as well.

Sorry, don't buy that Sid.  With the possible exception of Dennis Sigalos and given that Penhall actually chose to quit speedway (there weren't any other circumstances in his case), none of the above would have troubled the domination of the two Danes between 1984 and 1989.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, lucifer sam said:

Sorry, don't buy that Sid.  With the possible exception of Dennis Sigalos and given that Penhall actually chose to quit speedway (there weren't any other circumstances in his case), none of the above would have troubled the domination of the two Danes between 1984 and 1989.

Do yo remember Sam???  check the head to head records from the start Lee was the boss over Nielsen and Gundersen and Carter did very well to.Sanders/ Sigalos were players but fringe players.If Penhall had hung around he would of won more titles as well and Penhall keeping Lee motiavated would of changed thing's. Nielsen/ Erik were great riders but there competition dwindled and the era ended up falling on its  feet.

Edited by Sidney the robin

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