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Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

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2 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Do yo remember Sam???  check the head to head records from the start Lee was the boss over Nielsen and Gundersen and Carter did very well to.Sanders/ Sigalos were players but fringe players.If Penhall had hung around he would of won more titles as well and Penhall keeping Lee motiavated would of changed thing's. Nielsen/ Erik were great riders but there competition dwindled and the era ended up falling on its  feet.

Lee wasn't injured.

He hadn't got what it took. There's more to success than just ability.

There are no excuses, he hadn't got the package to be the best over a consistent period of time.

 

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29 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Do yo remember Sam???  check the head to head records from the start Lee was the boss over Nielsen and Gundersen and Carter did very well to.Sanders/ Sigalos were players but fringe players.If Penhall had hung around he would of won more titles as well and Penhall keeping Lee motiavated would of changed thing's. Nielsen/ Erik were great riders but there competition dwindled and the era ended up falling on its  feet.

Sid, some of those riders were still around at the start of the Erik/Hans domination period and couldn't do anything about it.   

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Lee wasn't injured.

He hadn't got what it took. There's more to success than just ability.

There are no excuses, he hadn't got the package to be the best over a consistent period of time.

 

And indeed Penhall, Carter and Sanders did not pick up career-ending speedway injuries either.  The only one from Sid's list to be ruled out by injury was Sigalos.  The rest ruled themselves out, one way or another.

Edited by lucifer sam

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9 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

Sanders had not peaked in my opinion he was just approaching it the two years before his demise he really had upped his game.

Always reckoned that if Billy (and everyone else that day) had not met Muller at Norden in 1983 he'd prob have been Champ that year, he was 2nd with Lee 3rd.  And I also wish Penhall had stuck around a few more years to hopefully give Gundersen & Nielsen a run for their money.  It's fun to compare rider & eras, but conditions are always different (bikes, tracks, competitions WF v GPs) so one ends up with 'if only's' & 'maybes'....

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1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

If Penhall had hung around he would of won more titles as well and Penhall keeping Lee motiavated would of changed thing's.

IF!!! IF!!!

I think Penhall would have won more, but we will never know because he didn't hang around. How do we know he would have kept Lee motivated?

Yes, it's fun to speculate, but opinions mean absolutely nothing. Particularly with this era, there are more "if's" than ever, and for every "if" leading to one possible conclusion, there is at least one countering any argument.

Think about it. 

If Penhall...

If Carter...

If Lee...

If Sigalos...

Even throw in :

If Collins...

If Sanders...

Steve

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2 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

 Penhall keeping Lee motiavated would of changed thing's.

I’m really not sure where this comes from. Was Lee unmotivated in 1983? Also Sanders has really started to believe in himself? It’s just imaginary thinking and not grounded in any evidence from the individuals concerned or those around them. Or certainly none that I’ve ever read or seen.

Sanders was a world class rider and to my mind, he did really really well to get on the World Final rostrum twice. But even then, I think the vast majority of people would not rank him as one of the top three in the world. Was he winning major events like the BLRC, Intercontinental Final? Was he topping the averages? Yes, he did very well to get on the rostrum, but it doesn’t mean he was in the same elite as the Penhalls, Nielsens and Gundersens of the world.

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10 minutes ago, falcace said:

I’m really not sure where this comes from. Was Lee unmotivated in 1983? Also Sanders has really started to believe in himself? 

I agree. We've seen some silly posts on here, and quite honestly, that wasn't one of them. However, that was quite possibly the most bizarre one I've ever seen...

I was a Sanders fan, he was a world-class rider, and he was a contender, but I would never consider him a realistic threat to the few at the very top.

Steve

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5 hours ago, falcace said:

I’m really not sure where this comes from. Was Lee unmotivated in 1983? Also Sanders has really started to believe in himself? It’s just imaginary thinking and not grounded in any evidence from the individuals concerned or those around them. Or certainly none that I’ve ever read or seen.

Sanders was a world class rider and to my mind, he did really really well to get on the World Final rostrum twice. But even then, I think the vast majority of people would not rank him as one of the top three in the world. Was he winning major events like the BLRC, Intercontinental Final? Was he topping the averages? Yes, he did very well to get on the rostrum, but it doesn’t mean he was in the same elite as the Penhalls, Nielsens and Gundersens of the world.

Lee said Penhall was the one guy that kept him motivated and on his toes and was the rider he always had to beat.

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4 hours ago, chunky said:

I agree. We've seen some silly posts on here, and quite honestly, that wasn't one of them. However, that was quite possibly the most bizarre one I've ever seen...

I was a Sanders fan, he was a world-class rider, and he was a contender, but I would never consider him a realistic threat to the few at the very top.

Steve

This is one of the craziest posts i have read the bloke has already been on the rostrum twice is odviously improving yet you basically class him as a also ran.Did you actually see him ride in the last two years of his life live chunky? because if you had you would definitely recognise that he had improved one hell of a lot.

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8 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Lee wasn't injured.

He hadn't got what it took. There's more to success than just ability.

There are no excuses, he hadn't got the package to be the best over a consistent period of time.

 

I can't disagree with that.

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10 hours ago, chunky said:

IF!!! IF!!!

I think Penhall would have won more, but we will never know because he didn't hang around. How do we know he would have kept Lee motivated?

Yes, it's fun to speculate, but opinions mean absolutely nothing. Particularly with this era, there are more "if's" than ever, and for every "if" leading to one possible conclusion, there is at least one countering any argument.

Think about it. 

If Penhall...

If Carter...

If Lee...

If Sigalos...

Even throw in :

If Collins...

If Sanders...

Steve

If Lance King had stayed at Cradley in 1985, and the flow of his career not been interrupted...

There's another ;)

But here's a counter IF...

IF Erik Gundersen hadn't been seriously injured, what would have happened?  At the time of his injury, Erik looked like capable of winning more, while Hans had won three out of the last four titles.  So what were we looking at?  Erik a 6-time champion and Hans a 8-time champion?  The other way around? How long into the 1990s would the domination continued, with a fit Erik and an unfettered Hans?

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12 hours ago, martinmauger said:

It's fun to compare rider & eras, but conditions are always different (bikes, tracks, competitions WF v GPs) so one ends up with 'if only's' & 'maybes'....

Exactly why Woffinden probably is the most successful British rider of all time but only possibly the best

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, lucifer sam said:

If Lance King had stayed at Cradley in 1985, and the flow of his career not been interrupted...

There's another ;)

But here's a counter IF...

IF Erik Gundersen hadn't been seriously injured, what would have happened?  At the time of his injury, Erik looked like capable of winning more, while Hans had won three out of the last four titles.  So what were we looking at?  Erik a 6-time champion and Hans a 8-time champion?  The other way around? How long into the 1990s would the domination continued, with a fit Erik and an unfettered Hans?

I was never a great fan of Lance King although one can't take away his third place at Gothenburg in 1984...but never a serious contender thereafter for reasons you touch upon and expanded in a  very interesting interview in an edition of 'Backtrack' some years ago.

Edited by steve roberts

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5 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

This is one of the craziest posts i have read the bloke has already been on the rostrum twice is odviously improving yet you basically class him as a also ran.Did you actually see him ride in the last two years of his life live chunky? because if you had you would definitely recognise that he had improved one hell of a lot.

I did and he was good. Very good. But not great.

Have a look at his 84 World Champs record...2nd to Crump in Aus Final, 4th in Overseas, 11th (and final qualifier) from Intercontinental, 11th and 5pts in the final. Also in the World Pairs, 8 pts in the semi and 6 in the final from six rides. Was this a rider on the up and set to beat Nielsen, Gundersen and the rest at Bradford 85? Katowice 86? Amsterdam 87? Vojens 88? Not on your nelly. 

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14 minutes ago, falcace said:

I did and he was good. Very good. But not great.

Have a look at his 84 World Champs record...2nd to Crump in Aus Final, 4th in Overseas, 11th (and final qualifier) from Intercontinental, 11th and 5pts in the final. Also in the World Pairs, 8 pts in the semi and 6 in the final from six rides. Was this a rider on the up and set to beat Nielsen, Gundersen and the rest at Bradford 85? Katowice 86? Amsterdam 87? Vojens 88? Not on your nelly. 

Correct.  Billy's best chance was in 1984, around his beloved Gothenburg, and he was nowhere near.

Sentiment makes you want to believe he could have won a title, but for his tragic demise. Logic suggests otherwise.

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