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Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

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18 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I was never a great fan of Lance King although one can't take away his third place at Gothenburg in 1984...but never a serious contender thereafter for reasons you touch upon and expanded in a  very interesting interview in an edition of 'Backtrack' some years ago.

Indeed - Lance was young enough to come on strong again after signing for Bradford in 1986.  He didn't reach another World Final after '85.  You can't blame him for deciding to make some money from speedway, and prioritise that before chasing World Championship success.

I was just adding another IF ;)

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5 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

This is one of the craziest posts i have read the bloke has already been on the rostrum twice is odviously improving yet you basically class him as a also ran.Did you actually see him ride in the last two years of his life live chunky? because if you had you would definitely recognise that he had improved one hell of a lot.

Please point out where I stated that he was an "also-ran". I stated that he was a "world-class rider".  I stated that he was "a contender", meaning that he was regularly there or thereabouts, and on his day, could beat anyone.  He was somebody that you wouldn't be surprised to see on a rostrum.

That does not put him in the highest bracket alongside Penhall, Lee, Gundersen, or Collins.

Yes, of course I saw him - several times - and I still treasure the photo I took of him and Simmo in the Wimbledon car park.

I never said he had not improved, but I do not agree that he was still improving. I feel that he had reached his peak, and no, that doesn't mean I think he was "past his best".

As stated previously, an 11.53 average over four matches means little. Stefan Salomonsson was pushing an 11-point average at the start of the 1979 season, and had beaten the current Top 3 in the world on their own tracks. Your point is?

Oh, and Zenon Plech was on the rostrum twice; does that put him in the same class as multiple world champions - or even Sanders?

You really have to stop getting offended when people don't agree with your opinions, particularly when they use reason and logic on the way to drawing a fair and well-balanced conclusion.

Steve

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18 minutes ago, falcace said:

I did and he was good. Very good. But not great.

Have a look at his 84 World Champs record...2nd to Crump in Aus Final, 4th in Overseas, 11th (and final qualifier) from Intercontinental, 11th and 5pts in the final. Also in the World Pairs, 8 pts in the semi and 6 in the final from six rides. Was this a rider on the up and set to beat Nielsen, Gundersen and the rest at Bradford 85? Katowice 86? Amsterdam 87? Vojens 88? Not on your nelly. 

My case for Billy is as sound as yours was for Sigalos ( who i rated highly as well.)You said Sigalos until his untimely injury was ahead of Nielsen/ Gundersen really?? Sigalos was not really in the hunt in the 1982 final and at Norden he was bang average so my point is Sanders was at least on a par with him all ifs and but's i know.

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24 minutes ago, falcace said:

Was this a rider on the up and set to beat Nielsen, Gundersen and the rest at Bradford 85? Katowice 86? Amsterdam 87? Vojens 88? 

Aapparently...

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2 minutes ago, chunky said:

Please point out where I stated that he was an "also-ran". I stated that he was a "world-class rider".  I stated that he was "a contender", meaning that he was regularly there or thereabouts, and on his day, could beat anyone.  He was somebody that you wouldn't be surprised to see on a rostrum.

That does not put him in the highest bracket alongside Penhall, Lee, Gundersen, or Collins.

Yes, of course I saw him - several times - and I still treasure the photo I took of him and Simmo in the Wimbledon car park.

I never said he had not improved, but I do not agree that he was still improving. I feel that he had reached his peak, and no, that doesn't mean I think he was "past his best".

As stated previously, an 11.53 average over four matches means little. Stefan Salomonsson was pushing an 11-point average at the start of the 1979 season, and had beaten the current Top 3 in the world on their own tracks. Your point is?

Oh, and Zenon Plech was on the rostrum twice; does that put him in the same class as multiple world champions - or even Sanders?

You really have to stop getting offended when people don't agree with your opinions, particularly when they use reason and logic on the way to drawing a fair and well-balanced conclusion.

Steve

Not offended Steve not one bit you put a great case across i would not of named Collins in amongst them after 1977 because his hopes of winning another title had gone.

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You knock me but boy you have a huge chip on your shoulder is there any need for this childish remark.??? Your opinion i respect but i dont see that coming from you oh well i wont lose any sleep over it.

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1 minute ago, Sidney the robin said:

Not offended Steve not one bit you put a great case across i would not of named Collins in amongst them after 1977 because his hopes of winning another title had gone.

Collins was still in that era with Sanders, and he had a first and a second in that period. What I am saying is that Billy never reached the level of those I mentioned, even though he was competing against them.

Steve

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2 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

You knock me but boy you have a huge chip on your shoulder is there any need for this childish remark.??? Your opinion i respect but i dont see that coming from you oh well i wont lose any sleep over it.

Not at all. You said my post was crazy because I stated that Sanders was an "also-ran" - when I never said anything of the sort...

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1 minute ago, chunky said:

Not at all. You said my post was crazy because I stated that Sanders was an "also-ran" - when I never said anything of the sort...

Your tone is not good yet you twist it around to make me look the villain.Your opinion is sound and i respect it i dont get the same vibes from you just saying.

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I can say after AJ finished 2nd in 2011 I had a difference of opinions with Ghostie. I said I thought that would be the peak for him and Ghostie thought he could still go further. The debate must still be on here, and so far it looks like I have been proved right.

 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Your tone is not good yet you twist it around to make me look the villain.Your opinion is sound and i respect it i dont get the same vibes from you just saying.

My "tone is not good"? Look at some of the stuff YOU have said here, and I haven't twisted anything.

You said my post was "one of the craziest" because I didn't rate Sanders alongside a handful of legendary riders.

You said I stated that Sanders as an "also-ran", which I didn't.

You asked if I had even seen Sanders in that time period, because if I had, I would "know"... Nice tone there, eh?

You said that Sanders was "obviously improving" - which he wasn't...

Is that twisting things around to make you "look the villain"???

Please, let's back to the script...

Steve

Edited by chunky
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2 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

Your tone is not good yet you twist it around to make me look the villain.Your opinion is sound and i respect it i dont get the same vibes from you just saying.

Sid, no need to get upset.  It's just a discussion.  I know people sometimes wind you up something rotten, nobody is trying to do that on this thread.

We simply disagreed regarding Billy Sanders being a major threat to Erik & Hans at Bradford in 1985 and subsequent finals.

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2 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

Sid, no need to get upset.  It's just a discussion.  I know people sometimes wind you up something rotten, nobody is trying to do that on this thread.

We simply disagreed regarding Billy Sanders being a major threat to Erik & Hans at Bradford in 1985 and subsequent finals.

Totally understand Sam thanks for that no i am passionate about certain stuff but i do respect what other people have to say.Chunky god i respect what he says always have done just got the vibes that he was getting chopesy and does not respect anything i say.

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20 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Totally understand Sam thanks for that no i am passionate about certain stuff but i do respect what other people have to say.Chunky god i respect what he says always have done just got the vibes that he was getting chopesy and does not respect anything i say.

Again, you claimed that I had stated - or at least implied - certain things, which I had not.  No, it is not a case of me not respecting what you say, but yes, I do get pissy when I am accused of saying something I clearly did not.

I also stand by my reaction to your comment about Lee needing Penhall around to motivate him.  Yes, that is a remarkably bizarre claim, and if that really is true, then Lee is not the rider I thought he was...

Steve

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Bit controversial this but I was a big fan of PC in the 70s although I actually preferred Mort's style. I didn't follow speedway quite as closely around the mid 80s just going now and again . I've been checking PC's record after his win and then incredible 2nd place the year after. What I'm shocked at is he didn't really seem to be a serious contender after that. Am I talking rubbish?

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