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Grachan

Thursdays - Use them or lose them!

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10 minutes ago, MattK said:

It isn't a handful of riders I'm afraid:

GP Challenge

Ricky Wells
Krzysztof Kasprzak x2
Jack Holder x2
Niels-Kristian Iversen x2
Robert Lambert x2
Brady Kurtz
Jacob Thorssell
Daniel Bewley
Bradley Wilson-Dean
Kenneth Bjerre x2
David Bellego x2
Kevin Wölbert x2
Chris Harris
Rohan Tungate
Nicolas Covatti
Craig Cook x2
Hans Andersen x2
Max Fricke x2
Kyle Howarth

World U21s (Four meetings)
Robert Lambert
Daniel Bewley

Team U21s (Two meetings)
Daniel Bewley
Ellis Perks
Zach Wajtknecht
Nathan Greaves
Connor Mountain

SoN (Two weekends)
Woffinden
Cook
Lambert

Are you suggesting clubs should avoid signing any of the above riders or that the riders above should be forced to choose between the British league and their individual aspirations?

The whole point of fixed race nights is to avoid the inevitable clashes with the lower division, foreign leagues and the meetings as described above.

I agree that attendances where significantly higher when clubs ran at weekends, but Britain was also the dominant league featuring all the world's top riders. Which of those (weekend meetings or top riders) was the biggest draw is open to debate.

Do you really think that if forced to make a decision the likes of Ricky Wells, and most of the others you mention, is going to choose to ride in a GP qualifier at the expense of a whole League season?

If you're trying to attract a whole new fan base you've got to run at weekends any newbie coming along isn't going to know who the hell Krzysztof Kasprzak is they're not even going to be able to pronounce it... They will be able to identify who their home town club is though

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1 minute ago, iainb said:

Do you really think that if forced to make a decision the likes of Ricky Wells, and most of the others you mention, is going to choose to ride in a GP qualifier at the expense of a whole League season?

If you're trying to attract a whole new fan base you've got to run at weekends any newbie coming along isn't going to know who the hell Krzysztof Kasprzak is they're not even going to be able to pronounce it... They will be able to identify who their home town club is though

Not the likes of Ricky Wells, but what about Iversen, Cook, Fricke, Holder, Bewley, Lambert and so on?

I disagree that speedway needs to run at weekends to attract new fans. There is no reason new fans cannot attend midweek meeting IF speedway actually made an effort to actually promote itself.

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1 minute ago, MattK said:

Not the likes of Ricky Wells, but what about Iversen, Cook, Fricke, Holder, Bewley, Lambert and so on?

I disagree that speedway needs to run at weekends to attract new fans. There is no reason new fans cannot attend midweek meeting IF speedway actually made an effort to actually promote itself.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, as for your list neither of us really knows but I suspect Cook, Bewley would stay UK maybe Holder and Fricke as they live here and wouldn't be able to if they didn't also work here but I think NKI and Lambert would be off

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14 hours ago, Aces51 said:

If we have to go with the fixed nights then it should be Monday and Thursday. Wolves, King's Lynn and Poole on Mondays and the remaining existing PL tracks on Thursdays. Any newcomers to be allocated to keep the numbers on each night as equal as possible. :)

Really can't see Belle Vue riding on any night other than Fridays, crowds were very poor last season riding on the Monday nights, when compared to the 2017 season when we rode on our favoured night Friday.Our promoters are through and through Businessmen, I can't see them bailing out again, for another under supported season. Cookie is not in the GP's this coming season and Max is only 2nd reserve, so assuming we start the season including both in our 1-7 Friday night's at Belle Vue should be fairly easy to sort out. Finally I for 1 would move heaven and earth to get Max back next season, he is so entertaining round the NSS.

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17 hours ago, A ORLOV said:

That could mean that any number up to about  ten riders from this year will not always be available due to Polish and other meetings. 

Sadly it is time for British Speedway to think of itself and form a league based on costs that are practicable and riders who are available here for the majority of the time.

The likelihood is that this would inevitably lead to a weakened league in terms of top riders but it would at least survive and hopefully over time would recover.

Drastic action is required and we cannot keep adapting to solely accommodate the top riders as the sport cannot cope with them as it is.

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19 minutes ago, magnificentseven said:

Drastic action is required and we cannot keep adapting to solely accommodate the top riders as the sport cannot cope with them as it is.

... And the trouble now is that we are adapting to solely accommodate distinctly average riders!

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38 minutes ago, hyderd said:

Really can't see Belle Vue riding on any night other than Fridays, crowds were very poor last season riding on the Monday nights, when compared to the 2017 season when we rode on our favoured night Friday.Our promoters are through and through Businessmen, I can't see them bailing out again, for another under supported season. Cookie is not in the GP's this coming season and Max is only 2nd reserve, so assuming we start the season including both in our 1-7 Friday night's at Belle Vue should be fairly easy to sort out. Finally I for 1 would move heaven and earth to get Max back next season, he is so entertaining round the NSS.

I agree with everything you say which is why I said, if we have to go with fixed nights, meaning either Monday, Wednesday or Monday, Thursday. In my opinion to continue on a Monday will be commercial suicide. Mark Lemon did say in this week's SS that crowds had improved as the season went on but that he didn't know why. I suspect that school holidays, the prospect of getting into and then being in the play offs and the latter stages of the KO Cup may have played a significant part.

As for returning to Saturdays, even putting aside all of the practicalities, I am not sure that it is now a better option than Friday. Saturday is the night when TV puts on it's most popular programmes, many football games are played and the main night for people to go out. The competition for the leisure pound is much greater now  than it was when many tracks operated on a Saturday whereas Friday has the advantage of no school the next day and people still have Saturday to go somewhere if wife/husband/partner is not a speedway fan.

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2 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

Who actually cares what nights that Poland uses?  Friday, Saturday and Sunday are the best nights for attendances, so we should use them. The riders then have a simple choice.  It's about time the tail stopped wagging the dog.

They don't have a choice as missing a priority fixture such as Sweden or Poland then they will have their licence held and be inline for a 28 day ban. Without a licence they wouldn't be allowed to race anywhere. 

 

Sweden will only run a few meetings on a Thirsday so any rider in the top league there would only clash if they had a fixture here on a Thursday, the same with Poland who will be running their four top league matches on Friday and Saturday but half of these (two) would still be Sunday's, so it's only the odd meeting that might clash. 

 

There red are not that many Polish Extraliga riders riding here so take Max Fricke as an example, if Wroclaw have two Friday meetings next season, Belle Vue try and miss these clashes which in one league of 17 home matches is possible with 20-23 Friday's available. Most of Frickes meetings in Poland will be on a Sunday still.

 

As for Sweden, the list may be a bit longer as Poland is obviously stronger, but Sweden may well only be doing a couple on the Thursday so hopefully Britain can arrange their fixtures around those few clashes. There may be a few clashes, but if these are more the mid team riders , tracks can use RR or a guest but it won't be very often. 

 

If Britain runs one league at Championship level in order to afford running costs, wages, riding on chosen nights and developing British youngsters then clashes won't be noticed if run correctly but we will have a league that can be used to rebuild British Speedway over the next few years and at a affordable and reasonable entrance fee to entice fans that are now going once in a while but also attract new fans. 

 

By by reducing the costs at Championship level, the Premiership tracks dropping down would already have saved a considerable sum so reducing the cost of entrance wouldn't make clubs any worse off and could in fact see them make more of a profit but if they keep the same prices, they are just going to see crowds reducing week by week. 

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1 hour ago, magnificentseven said:

Sadly it is time for British Speedway to think of itself and form a league based on costs that are practicable and riders who are available here for the majority of the time.

The likelihood is that this would inevitably lead to a weakened league in terms of top riders but it would at least survive and hopefully over time would recover.

Drastic action is required and we cannot keep adapting to solely accommodate the top riders as the sport cannot cope with them as it is.

What about the clubs who CAN afford to operate at a 'top' level and their fans demand it??  They should be allowed and encouraged to do just that, whilst running a 'B' team in the weaker league.  If its only 5, 6, 7 or 8 teams that fit that category then call it a Super League or an Elite League with a decent points limit and with a low maximum number of fixtures to attract some of the top riders and then a B team (without any top riders) to run with a lower points limit and with a reduced admission price.

As long as the scenario is financially sound for those clubs - and more importantly its what the fans and sponsors of those clubs want to see -  then why shouldn't there be a structure that allows them to do it? 

Edited by Skidder1
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2 minutes ago, Skidder1 said:

What about the clubs who CAN afford to operate at a 'top' level and their fans demand it??  They should be allowed and encouraged to do just that, whilst running a 'B' team in the weaker league.  If its only 5, 6, 7 or 8 teams that fit that category then call it a Super League or an Elite League with a decent points limit and with a maximum number of fixtures to attract some of the top riders and then a B team (without any top riders) to run with a lower points limit and with a reduced admission price.

As long as the scenario is financially sound for those clubs - and more importantly its what the fans of those clubs want to see -  then why shouldn't there be a structure that allows them to do it? 

How many teams are you talking about here?

Poole maybe - but surely the fact that Matt wants to sell is an indication that costs may be building up - and if no buyer found is there is a doubt?

Swindon? - will they have a track? Can they afford top league racing? Doubtful on both counts

Wolves - maybe but CVS is well known for cutting his cloth to suit and may be looking at cutting costs and unlikely to want to run two teams as he's done that before and lost out.

Belle Vue? maybe they could be interested as they would want to be at the top level.

King's Lynn - must be a doubt over their interest in an exclusive top league club as unlikely that NKI will be back and also maybe doubts over Lambert - their asset base would be better suited to a larger lower standard league.

Leicester are already rumoured to be wanting to drop down so unlikely to be interested in a top league.

Somerset - probably in a good position to choose as they have their own track and own assets but unlikely to want to run two teams and more likely to want to run in a larger lower standard league.

By my reckoning that's 3 maybe 4 teams that would be interested in a top league and that is clearly not going to work.

Unlikely that any current Championship clubs would be interested in a top league other than maybe Glasgow and that would be financial suicide given the lack of local derbies.

 

 

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Matt is considering selling because he has a new business interest which requires him to move abroad.  The club is on a sound financial footing.

Poole,Wolves, Swindon( according to Terry Russell), Belle Vue (according to their commitment to the City Council), Kings Lynn, Somerset plus the rumoured Peterborough and Ipswich would be ok for any top league.

Edited by Skidder1

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Just now, Skidder1 said:

Matt is considering selling because he has a new business interest which requires him to move abroad.  The club is on a sound financial footing.

Poole,Wolves, Swindon, Belle Vue, Kings Lynn, Somerset plus the rumoured Peterborough and Ipswich would be ok for any top league.

Peterborough are up for sale - if they are struggling with costs in the Championship I can't see them being interested in additional costs of a Super League.

See my comments above re Wolves and Swindon - we will have to agree to disagree on those.

Would be hell of an outlay for King's Lynn on their current crowd levels and potential lack of top riders in their asset base so we will have to agree to disagree on that one too.

 

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If you run one league at Championship level you will build a foundation that can be built,on for the 2020 season which then could be possible for the few that want to run at a higher level to run in two levels. 

 

When end setting up for 2020 you build your team for the one league again but tracks like Belle Vue, Poole, Kings Lynn, Swindon, Sheffield, Glasgow etc may look at riding in a Extra League here on a Monday, meaning Wolves may need to switch race nights, possibly back tomFridays as it was in the seventies. 

 

They use use their top five and bring in two star riders regardless of averages to complete the team. Poole would bring in Janowski and Sayfutdinov maybe, Wolves Woffinden and Lindgren, Swindon Doyke and Zengota, Glasgow Hancock and Dudek etc.

 

By running on just 14 Monday's and running on BT Sports the top riders would consider riding here, especially now as Sweden may be Thursday and Poland on a Friday so Monday may not be the rush back it has been.

 

yes they want more money but they won't be after crazy amounts but they would expect an improvement in tracks which apart from a few are the worse they have ever been over here at present and many need a complete relaying of the base not just patching up. 

 

A top top league is possible in this way for 2019 but think we need a tear to build the foundation first and look at this option through the next 14 months

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48 minutes ago, INCOGNITO said:

They don't have a choice as missing a priority fixture such as Sweden or Poland then they will have their licence held and be inline for a 28 day ban. Without a licence they wouldn't be allowed to race anywhere. 

If we sign up to the ISLB agreement.  Maybe we shouldn't do that.

Riders would have a choice - they ride in Poland or they ride over here.  We need Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays.  If this year has proven anything, it's that running mid-week (with the notable exception of one or two tracks) is financial suicide.  Put speedway on a night when the fans will come, because you need to look after the supporters as your No 1 priority. And then the riders have to fit into that.  As I said, no more tail wagging the dog.

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I can't see that a super league structure with a second team at Championship level will work. It doesn't matter how it is dressed up, fans will regard the championship level team as the reserve team and it will not attract fans in sufficient numbers. 

In 2017 the Aces had an average crowd of over 1400. The Colts averaged less than 500. Arguably, the racing was as good and the facilities, presentation etc., the same but fans wanted to see the best on offer and for that and for some, not being able to afford to attend both, voted with their feet. It would be a big financial gamble to run a super league team. Clubs would no doubt have to increase the admission cost to pay for the super stars and it could be a financial disaster if fans didn't then turn out in sufficient numbers for either, or, both teams.

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