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SPEEDY69

Buxton - epitomy of NL racing?

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Sadly Buxton have withdrawn from the NL and on reading the great article in the S Star last week (bought in WH Smith) it seems costs are the issue yet again.  It really was a sad development when the third league went 'professional'.  With ever increasing medical, insurance and licence costs it seems NL riders have been looking for higher pay rates, vans and even paid mechanics!

If the third div collectively refused, there would be more riders seeking CL places and lead to less need for doubling down from the PL.

How many more tracks will have to close before the BSPA and more importantly the riders realise that the money is not there.

When I rode in the third div in 1997 the top scorer got 50 quid and a gallon of fuel plus 5p mile travelling.  The bottom two got 15 pounds in total. 

It was a hobby so I didn't object to paying to ride. Those who wanted a career also had to shell out in order to progress. That's how it is in many careers - how much debt do students leave Uni with on the prospect of future earnings?

I really hope the track there is not lost and that the third tier soon returns to amateur status and I feel really sorry for the Moss family.

What do you think?

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Speedy69 got £50 in 1997 ...Today in that same league the top rider might get £250/£300...allow for inflation and

it is not that much different is it ?.  In the 20 years in between equipment has changed out of all recognition and the

costs have spiralled. If Speedy69 had his wish for the 3rd tier to return to amateur status, every track would go the same 

sad way of Buxton .  Does he really want that ?  I certainly do not and get huge pleasure from the quality that presently

exists in the National League, a mixture of abilities with riders striving to improve.

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I don't know in what country that might be but I reckon, allowing for UK inflation, 50 quid then would be worth about 90 pounds now.

We'll agree to differ on clubs folding, i think the bigger drain  is cost rises, not income falls.

Speedway in the UK can barely support two professional leagues, let alone three. Would you mind paying more to watch NL speedway?

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For me the '3rd Division' should be the 'development league'...

I seem to remember that this was it's initial vision...

Each team seemed to have one rider with experience (a rider coach wasn't it referred to as?) and the other six were aspiring riders, keen to learn from the more experienced pros, and benchmark themselves against them when racing...

Paid track time was the outlook for many...

Instead it transpired into a pseudo pro league, mainly driven that way by '2nd tier' teams who couldn't make that league pay so dropped down, bringing with them several of their riders from the previous higher level who then doubled down and brought with them higher expectations of payment...

Thus creating the plethora of 'professional juniors' who now exist, who invariably make almost zero improvement year on year as they have found their level, but continue riding...

In effect clogging up the system of development as the places they take should be being used to bring on younger riders...

I thought this year the BSPA was eager to have clear demarcation between the leagues with the averages it set, however by simply not converting Premiership averages to Championship equivalents using the x1.5 conversation it set, it has undermined it's own idea...

Division One should be the 'pro league'...

Division Two should be the 'semi pro league'..

Division Three should be the development league, where getting some expenses to help cover costs should be seen as an added bonus to the track time being provided..

Three clear differential standards, with three clear aspirational levels for riders to move into...

 

Edited by mikebv
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9 hours ago, East End Fan said:

Speedy69 got £50 in 1997 ...Today in that same league the top rider might get £250/£300...allow for inflation and

it is not that much different is it ?.  In the 20 years in between equipment has changed out of all recognition and the

costs have spiralled. If Speedy69 had his wish for the 3rd tier to return to amateur status, every track would go the same 

sad way of Buxton .  Does he really want that ?  I certainly do not and get huge pleasure from the quality that presently

exists in the National League, a mixture of abilities with riders striving to improve.

I’m not so sure on £250 for example the top rider is this league is on a 10 point average he is probably on £30 pp 20ppm tyre fuel and oil so he’s likely taking home in excess of £400 a meeting 

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7 hours ago, mikebv said:

For me the '3rd Division' should be the 'development league'...

I seem to remember that this was it's initial vision...

Each team seemed to have one rider with experience (a rider coach wasn't it referred to as?) and the other six were aspiring riders, keen to learn from the more experienced pros, and benchmark themselves against them when racing...

Paid track time was the outlook for many...

Instead it transpired into a pseudo pro league, mainly driven that way by '2nd tier' teams who couldn't make that league pay so dropped down, bringing with them several of their riders from the previous higher level who then doubled down and brought with them higher expectations of payment...

Thus creating the plethora of 'professional juniors' who now exist, who invariably make almost zero improvement year on year as they have found their level, but continue riding...

In effect clogging up the system of development as the places they take should be being used to bring on younger riders...

I thought this year the BSPA was eager to have clear demarcation between the leagues with the averages it set, however by simply not converting Premiership averages to Championship equivalents using the x1.5 conversation it set, it has undermined it's own idea...

Division One should be the 'pro league'...

Division Two should be the 'semi pro league'..

Division Three should be the development league, where getting some expenses to help cover costs should be seen as an added bonus to the track time being provided..

Three clear differential standards, with three clear aspirational levels for riders to move into...

 

I literally couldn't agree more. What really grinds my gears is the number of riders who hang around for years, making little improvement and moaning how speedway treats them whilst the actual development league riders & organisers are treated like dirt.

 

26 minutes ago, TurnTwo said:

I’m not so sure on £250 for example the top rider is this league is on a 10 point average he is probably on £30 pp 20ppm tyre fuel and oil so he’s likely taking home in excess of £400 a meeting 

Even that wouldn't be so bad but i know better heat leaders at not the most renowned high paying club was giving £35 a point, tyre and fuel for home meetings. 

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Teaboy said in a post recently that Buxton had failed to move on. I think he has a point.

It seems to me that many seem to forget that an NL speedway club is a business. As such, they need to pull in enough revenue to meet their expenses which, aside from rider costs (a big chunk, admittedly) are no different from any other track. Rent, ambulance cover, insurance, BSPA fees, track preparation costs - they are the same (or so) regardless.

In order to get that revenue, they have to a product that is attractive enough to entice paying customers and, through that, sponsorship, Otherwise they are history.

When Rob Godfrey ran a very weak NL side a couple of seasons ago, every single home meeting was a double header with the PL team with a couple of quid banged on the entry price. Its not difficult to work out why he did that : run them as stand alones, and they would attract a handful of fans only. It would be slightly different for the likes of Kent, Mildenhall, Plymouth etc, but there's no doubt a weakened product would affect attendances and, through that sponsorship and, from that, the very existence of the team. 

Its why I have no problem with the so called NL professionals. Looking through last years starting line ups, most teams had just 1 or at the most 2, and they were nearly all 7.00 or above riders. None of those would take a 2point youngsters place. The way I see it, the NL has done an excellent job of compromising between development and viability. 

Make no mistake, a low point limit is more likely to put clubs out of business than a high one, which is probably why Mark Phillips has stated that they were all against the reduction in points this season. 

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Firstly it would be one man and his dog at development meetings ... and most of them would be parents and family who hadn’t paid to get in.

Blow an engine and where does the money come from to replace it if they were on nominal fees , a crash helmet costs £500 , boots £300/400 that’s before replacing worn parts and bent frames and handle bars , the costs to the rider are quite high to put a bike out on the track.

Also would you do such a dangerous sport for little money ?

Edited by UTB

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2 hours ago, UTB said:

Firstly it would be one man and his dog at development meetings ... and most of them would be parents and family who hadn’t paid to get in.

Blow an engine and where does the money come from to replace it if they were on nominal fees , a crash helmet costs £500 , boots £300/400 that’s before replacing worn parts and bent frames and handle bars , the costs to the rider are quite high to put a bike out on the track.

Also would you do such a dangerous sport for little money ?

The same reason Thousands yes that's right thousands go out MX racing  each and every weekend , because despite the costs which are equal to speedway , it's what they choose to do ,

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8 hours ago, adonis said:

The same reason Thousands yes that's right thousands go out MX racing  each and every weekend , because despite the costs which are equal to speedway , it's what they choose to do ,

I think you are absolutely right. Riders at NL level in particular (and especially the NL professionals) do it because they love competing in speedway. 

Having said that, there's also the matter of ambition. Many of the youngsters believe they have the talent to go further, so while they might love it they also race because of the possibility of fame and fortune.

I'd also say that if there was no payment at NL level some (again, the NL professionals) would quit. Moreover the standard would drop, as funds were not available to meet the high costs of equipment in the way that UTB has said.

 

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its tricky because up and down the country there are the loads of amateurs and development riders who do it for absolutely zero financial reward. Riding NL should be seen and treated as a subsidised hobby, the chance to do something you really enjoy with some funds coming back in. All the non league riders have to pay for everything themselves, still take time off work to travel up and down the country on terrible days and are not ever guaranteed a ride. If NL went purely amateur or £10 a point max the standard would drop a bit briefly as the current crop stepped aside but it would soon pick up again and become far more about actual rider ability rather than who has the deepest pockets.

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22 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said:

Teaboy said in a post recently that Buxton had failed to move on. I think he has a point.

It seems to me that many seem to forget that an NL speedway club is a business. As such, they need to pull in enough revenue to meet their expenses which, aside from rider costs (a big chunk, admittedly) are no different from any other track. Rent, ambulance cover, insurance, BSPA fees, track preparation costs - they are the same (or so) regardless.

In order to get that revenue, they have to a product that is attractive enough to entice paying customers and, through that, sponsorship, Otherwise they are history.

When Rob Godfrey ran a very weak NL side a couple of seasons ago, every single home meeting was a double header with the PL team with a couple of quid banged on the entry price. Its not difficult to work out why he did that : run them as stand alones, and they would attract a handful of fans only. It would be slightly different for the likes of Kent, Mildenhall, Plymouth etc, but there's no doubt a weakened product would affect attendances and, through that sponsorship and, from that, the very existence of the team. 

Its why I have no problem with the so called NL professionals. Looking through last years starting line ups, most teams had just 1 or at the most 2, and they were nearly all 7.00 or above riders. None of those would take a 2point youngsters place. The way I see it, the NL has done an excellent job of compromising between development and viability. 

Make no mistake, a low point limit is more likely to put clubs out of business than a high one, which is probably why Mark Phillips has stated that they were all against the reduction in points this season. 

Would have though a different approach is more suitable for the NL. Riders making the step into the PL need 1 or 2 seasons when they can continue taking part in the PL if they wish to, without becoming effectively barred from doing so because of stringent team points limits. Some thing along the lines of having a tight points limit for 5 NL team members, alongside a squad type of arrangement for the top two riders - say for example up to three riders with a generous combined points limit - and rules which set out minimum and maximum number of matches these 3 riders can take part in, with facility to draft in and out a replacement in the event of injury.

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On 12/12/2018 at 6:17 PM, Halifaxtiger said:

Teaboy said in a post recently that Buxton had failed to move on. I think he has a point.

It seems to me that many seem to forget that an NL speedway club is a business. As such, they need to pull in enough revenue to meet their expenses which, aside from rider costs (a big chunk, admittedly) are no different from any other track. Rent, ambulance cover, insurance, BSPA fees, track preparation costs - they are the same (or so) regardless.

In order to get that revenue, they have to a product that is attractive enough to entice paying customers and, through that, sponsorship, Otherwise they are history.

When Rob Godfrey ran a very weak NL side a couple of seasons ago, every single home meeting was a double header with the PL team with a couple of quid banged on the entry price. Its not difficult to work out why he did that : run them as stand alones, and they would attract a handful of fans only. It would be slightly different for the likes of Kent, Mildenhall, Plymouth etc, but there's no doubt a weakened product would affect attendances and, through that sponsorship and, from that, the very existence of the team. 

Its why I have no problem with the so called NL professionals. Looking through last years starting line ups, most teams had just 1 or at the most 2, and they were nearly all 7.00 or above riders. None of those would take a 2point youngsters place. The way I see it, the NL has done an excellent job of compromising between development and viability. 

Make no mistake, a low point limit is more likely to put clubs out of business than a high one, which is probably why Mark Phillips has stated that they were all against the reduction in points this season. 

Halifaxtiger has hit the nail on the head.  All those dreamers who suggest that tracks can stage meetings full of Wobblies and expect people to pay

to watch it need their heads looking at.  ANY stadium costs money to run at ANY level.  Only turnstile takings can maintain a stadium.  So ALL

Speedway promoters need to put on a show that the public will pay to watch.  Since the present National League became semi-professional, there

have been any number of young Brits who have been able to move up into the senior leagues....Best example, our very best current Brit outside of the World

Champ ( who came from the 3rd tier), Robert Lambert.  So...IF the league is doing the training job it was originally set up to do, then why do we need to

kill it by reducing the ability level to the point of extinction ?  Whoever it is that has the power to keep the standards down in the NL, needs to learn something

about the sport.

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2 hours ago, East End Fan said:

Halifaxtiger has hit the nail on the head.  All those dreamers who suggest that tracks can stage meetings full of Wobblies and expect people to pay

to watch it need their heads looking at.  ANY stadium costs money to run at ANY level.  Only turnstile takings can maintain a stadium.  So ALL

Speedway promoters need to put on a show that the public will pay to watch.  Since the present National League became semi-professional, there

have been any number of young Brits who have been able to move up into the senior leagues....Best example, our very best current Brit outside of the World

Champ ( who came from the 3rd tier), Robert Lambert.  So...IF the league is doing the training job it was originally set up to do, then why do we need to

kill it by reducing the ability level to the point of extinction ?  Whoever it is that has the power to keep the standards down in the NL, needs to learn something

about the sport.

Lambert is not a very good example of the virtues of nl  speedway . it's no secret that he and his family credit germany with his rapid rise to the top , and he did very few NL meetings anyway before jumping straight into the premiership , a better example would have been Craig Cook , or Chris Harris both spent a couple of full seasons in the third tier while making their way up

 

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I bow to your better judgement, Adonis...but there are so many examples that PROVE the benefits of the National League as it

has been and I simply do not understand the reasoning behind the lowering of standards. And it seems, if the various views that are expounded on this

forum are true, it is NOT the wishes of the N.L. promoters that is being implemented.

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