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bill94d

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16 hours ago, Grachan said:

......Out of interest, you say you are in Spain. What sort of public profile does Ana Currasco have there? Would she have been easily recognisable?

Good call, and I really don't know the answer…….The next time I do a sports picture quiz I’ll include her. That said in previous quizzes I have included photos of Marc Marquez, Aleix Espargaro, Jorge Lorenzo and Cal Crutchlow, and ALL have been easily identified.

 

Interestingly Woffenden joins a rather unique group, which gained zero recognition in previous quizzes. The others Santiago Abascal (leader of Spain’s fascist party VOX), Elena Farga (runner up in Factor X), and Scott Morrison (the Australian PM). That said Woffenden does become the first “sporting personality” to get a big fat ZERO!

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13 hours ago, BWitcher said:

It doesn't wind me up.

I simply find it amusing that people have such a lack of intelligence they can't put forward any form of sensible argument.

This latest one of yours is ever more desperate. 

I'd suggest you quit embarassing yourself now and move on. 

SPOTY served up what I suggested year after year for decades. The fact you now have to resort to making up 'sports' that don't exist, let alone that we have World Champions in really does show that you have no argument at all.

You can try and portray speedway as a sport akin to some of these made up ones you are listing as much as you like, the facts remain, Woffinden is World Champion of a truly international sport, performs in front of 40,000 fans at Cardiff, 50,000 fans in Wroclaw as well as five figure crowds at other GP's across Europe, something which the rest of your minority and made up sports don't.

:D :D:D

So, to those sports that don't exist, those "made-up" ones...

England’s Jason Bastable won gold at the World Blind Golf Championships this year. Scotland are current bronze medallists in the World Wheelchair Curling Championships. So, here's a chance for you to redact that and admit your mistake. Those sports are not made up. Fact. Perhaps you might roll out an apology as you are proven to be wrong? Another option is for you is to stamp your feet and throw childish insults. I wonder which one you will choose?

You are the one who is saying every British World Champion should be given due credit at SPOTY. You can bet your life that when the BBC tried to this approach in the past, they were inundated with complaints over missing out this and that sport from every pedantic Tom, Dick and Harry across the UK. Instead, SPOTY recognises the most significant rather than the mass appeasement-fest you are championing. I think a line has to be drawn somewhere, so far you have been saying there shouldn't. Are you sticking with that or will you admit another mistake? Or are there more toys left in the pram to have still to chuck out yet?

Yes, the crowds for a couple of GPs are impressive, but it's delusional to pretend that makes the whole sport of great national significance. Put it in context. The World Cyclocross Championships gets over 60k paying spectators, there are more people involved in a mass participation event like the London Triathlon than there are with the Cardiff GP, Greyhound racing has a larger annual audience at its race meetings.

To call speedway a minority sport in the UK actually doesn't cover it accurately enough. It's one of scores of minority sports and among that chasing pack, it's lagging towards the back of those and going backwards still. Go on, have a go at looking at the bigger picture, try looking at the facts and perhaps park the childish insults, you'll feel much better for it.

Edited by falcace
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4 hours ago, Mr Snackette said:

As I didn't include any pictures of netball players in the Quiz, I can't say for sure!

But given the two of "my regulars" are members of the local netball team, and joined Tracey Neville's squad when they were in Spain for warm weather training....I'm guessing the answer would be "YES"!!!!!:cheers:

Of course a major flaw in your argument is, you knew who Tai Woffinden is. So it's actually one out of 61 in the group you mention.

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12 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Of course a major flaw in your argument is, you knew who Tai Woffinden is. So it's actually one out of 61 in the group you mention.

That's the big advantage of being the quiz master....you're always right! Regardless!!!!:D

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I am rather intrigued that there are so many “fanatics” who refuse to accept speedway’s declining support, and see it all as some media conspiracy against the sport.

 

As others have said, apart from those who live inside the “speedway bubble” the sport is now an irrelevance. That’s not diminish Woffenden’s achievements, but to the great British public is this anymore noteworthy than Chris Anderson picking up his fourth successive world championship at Cooper's Hill this June?

 

I would suggest..not!

 

It isn’t the media’s fault that Speedway finds itself where it is…..and the reasons for it’s spectacular fall from grace have been well documented.

 

Now in my lifetime 1966 was a very good sporting year. Unsurprisingly the top three in the BBC Sports Personality of that year, was in third place England World Cup hattrick hero Geoff Hurst, with Sir Robert Moore the winner…..and sandwiched twixt them was a New Zealander by the name of Barry Briggs! In addition, a few years later Eamonn Andrews surprised Barry with his big red book and the famous line: “Barry Briggs….This is Your Life”!

 

For any youngsters out there “This is Your Life” was serious mainstream telly. It was broadcast when there were only 3 channels available, was on at primetime, when the audience was counted in tens of millions, not thousands!

 

Barry Briggs was (and probably still is) a major personality….sadly over the ensuing 50 plus years speedway had become so marginalised that folk no longer can name / recognise the current world champion...or in a lot of cases even know (or care) if the sport exists!

Edited by Mr Snackette
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Ah! Spain. A real speedway hotbed - really surprising that no senors recognised Woffinden 

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1 hour ago, Mr Snackette said:

I am rather intrigued that there are so many “fanatics” who refuse to accept speedway’s declining support, and see it all as some media conspiracy against the sport.

 

 

I'm not sure what thread you are reading, but it isn't this one.

Edited by BWitcher
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7 hours ago, Mr Snackette said:

As I didn't include any pictures of netball players in the Quiz, I can't say for sure!

But given the two of "my regulars" are members of the local netball team, and joined Tracey Neville's squad when they were in Spain for warm weather training....I'm guessing the answer would be "YES"!!!!!:cheers:

Just as you could easily identify Tai Woffinden. 2 minority sports completed totally differently by SPOTY mainly because BBC cover netball and it promotes women's sport which fits BBC's agenda . You only have to listen to Eleonor Oldroyd's show on Radio 5 on Fridays. 3 guests normally 2 women, women netballers, rugby players, footballers, cricketers aplenty.   

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7 hours ago, Mr Snackette said:

I am rather intrigued that there are so many “fanatics” who refuse to accept speedway’s declining support, and see it all as some media conspiracy against the sport.

 

As others have said, apart from those who live inside the “speedway bubble” the sport is now an irrelevance. That’s not diminish Woffenden’s achievements, but to the great British public is this anymore noteworthy than Chris Anderson picking up his fourth successive world championship at Cooper's Hill this June?

 

I would suggest..not!

 

It isn’t the media’s fault that Speedway finds itself where it is…..and the reasons for it’s spectacular fall from grace have been well documented.

Bang on. I too hold Woffinden’s achievements in high esteem. In pure speedway terms - he is the complete rider.

Blaming the media for speedway’s regression to national irrelevance is utterly barking up the wrong tree. Speedway needs to take a long hard look in the mirror, rather than pointing the finger elsewhere. And those whose heads are in the sand are part of the problem, not the solution.

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1 hour ago, falcace said:

Blaming the media for speedway’s regression to national irrelevance is utterly barking up the wrong tree.

Yes - and no.

Of course, many of speedway's problems (well, BRITISH speedway's problems) are self-inflicted. However, there are many that aren't. I am not going to keep going over the same ones, but I haven't previously covered the media ones.

Now, it would be wrong to accuse the BBC alone, and it would be wrong to think it is just a speedway (or sports) issue.

Unfortunately, the world is a very different - and very much more self-opinionated - place these days. We are all aware of the problems on public forums with opinions seemingly taking precedence over fact, but it is not limited to the general public.

The days of reporting "news" are gone; even the legitimate news services display ridiculous bias. The sad thing is that with modern television, the opportunities are there to cover so many more sports than ever before. With so many channels now, all running 24-hours, there shouldn't be any problem covering everything. Of course, there is, and it appears that it is better - and cheaper - for the tv companies to keep showing the same handful of sports, and to keep repeating the same programmes.

When the public complain, we get, "Sorry. Your sport does not fit in with our plans". In other words, the station (or more accurately, a person or persons within the station) don't like that particular sport. Same with newspapers and other publications, although the world of print has suffered at the hands of the internet. And then there is the internet...

I check the obituaries on the Telegraph website on a daily basis. They basically cover anyone who was anyone. Actors who appeared in two episodes of Corrie, footballers who played a handful of games for Rotherham Utd in 1964, etc..

Speedway? When Nigel Boocock died, I contacted them, and said that I thought that he deserved inclusion. I submitted a concise but detailed obituary. I received a "thank you", but that was it. They published an obituary for Ivan, but nothing for Ronnie.

Is that REALLY not their fault? High-profile and successful figures who were literally household names who merit inclusion more than many others who are published?

So, the media cannot be totally absolved from blame...

Steve

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9 hours ago, Midland Red said:

Ah! Spain. A real speedway hotbed - really surprising that no senors recognised Woffinden 

Indeed you're correct. That said Spain is not known to be a hotbed of American Football or Cricket, yet los señors, señoras y señoritas had little difficulty in identifying Tom Brady and Jimmy Anderson!!:D One wonders (as indeed does Juan!) what point you were trying to make...if any!:unsure:

Edited by Mr Snackette

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18 hours ago, Mr Snackette said:

I am rather intrigued that there are so many “fanatics” who refuse to accept speedway’s declining support, and see it all as some media conspiracy against the sport.

 

As others have said, apart from those who live inside the “speedway bubble” the sport is now an irrelevance. That’s not diminish Woffenden’s achievements, but to the great British public is this anymore noteworthy than Chris Anderson picking up his fourth successive world championship at Cooper's Hill this June?

 

I would suggest..not!

 

It isn’t the media’s fault that Speedway finds itself where it is…..and the reasons for it’s spectacular fall from grace have been well documented.

 

Now in my lifetime 1966 was a very good sporting year. Unsurprisingly the top three in the BBC Sports Personality of that year, was in third place England World Cup hattrick hero Geoff Hurst, with Sir Robert Moore the winner…..and sandwiched twixt them was a New Zealander by the name of Barry Briggs! In addition, a few years later Eamonn Andrews surprised Barry with his big red book and the famous line: “Barry Briggs….This is Your Life”!

 

For any youngsters out there “This is Your Life” was serious mainstream telly. It was broadcast when there were only 3 channels available, was on at primetime, when the audience was counted in tens of millions, not thousands!

 

Barry Briggs was (and probably still is) a major personality….sadly over the ensuing 50 plus years speedway had become so marginalised that folk no longer can name / recognise the current world champion...or in a lot of cases even know (or care) if the sport exists!

I find that those who wish to knock the sport paint a picture of those who attempt to defend it as blind optimists, utterly refusing to accept its minority status and living in cloud cuckoo land regarding the deep problems that it has. It is no coincidence that many of those no longer attend and my suspicion is that they do so in an attempt to justify their own decision not to go any more.

In actual fact - and I attend meetings right across the country regularly - nothing could be further from the truth and I know of no-one like that. Every single current fan accepts that speedway is minority and they are all deeply concerned about its future prospects for survival, its declining attendances and revenue creation and the appalling self interests at the heart of the sport. The scale and range of critical comment on this forum is evidence of that.

Even in its hey day, speedway never got the media attention its size and attendances deserved. It would say that that was partly but not totally the fault of those within the sport.

It would also be very wrong to insist that those who advocate Woffinden's inclusion do so simply because of their own bias towards speedway, rather than on an at least a partly  balanced basis given other nominees. 

Truth is being a competitor in a minority sport - or an 'irrelevance' - has never been a handicap where the BBC's nominations are concerned. If it were, Lizzy Yarnold would surely not be there (as you said yourself, only 2 out of more than 60 recognised her and on University Challenge recently none did). 

Yet as the greatest ever British Winter Olympian her nomination, to me, is absolutely correct.  

By virtue of his three world  titles, Woffinden can reasonably be stated to be the greatest British speedway rider of all time (or the most 'decorated' one, using the BBC's own term). As such, he isn't just a World Champion.

I would say that  their  achievements are almost identical. Clearly, they both represent minority sports. My view, therefore, is that they should be treated equally.

Your view (because you have stated no criticism of or opposition to her nomination) is that they should be treated entirely differently.  

Which one of us is biased ? 

Edited by Halifaxtiger
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11 hours ago, chunky said:

I check the obituaries on the Telegraph website on a daily basis. They basically cover anyone who was anyone. Actors who appeared in two episodes of Corrie, footballers who played a handful of games for Rotherham Utd in 1964, etc..

Speedway? When Nigel Boocock died, I contacted them, and said that I thought that he deserved inclusion. I submitted a concise but detailed obituary. I received a "thank you", but that was it. They published an obituary for Ivan, but nothing for Ronnie.

Is that REALLY not their fault? High-profile and successful figures who were literally household names who merit inclusion more than many others who are published?

So, the media cannot be totally absolved from blame...

Steve

Is that true? Corrie extras and Rotherham squad men getting Telegraph obituaries? Any evidence of that?

Again, Nigel Boocock is a significant figure for people inside speedway. But outside the speedway bubble?  Not really. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Look at it from the vantage point of the layperson. He was once a member of a GB winning World Cup team in a minority sport. When he shuffles off this mortal coil, do you expect Paul Thorp to be lauded in the national media too?

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3 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said:

I find that those who wish to knock the sport paint a picture of those who attempt to defend it as blind optimists, utterly refusing to accept its minority status and living in cloud cuckoo land regarding the deep problems that it has. It is no coincidence that many of those no longer attend and my suspicion is that they do so in an attempt to justify their own decision not to go any more.

In actual fact - and I attend meetings right across the country regularly - nothing could be further from the truth and I know of no-one like that. Every single current fan accepts that speedway is minority and they are all deeply concerned about its future prospects for survival, its declining attendances and revenue creation and the appalling self interests at the heart of the sport. The scale and range of critical comment on this forum is evidence of that.

Even in its hey day, speedway never got the media attention its size and attendances deserved. It would say that that was partly but not totally the fault of those within the sport.

It would also be very wrong to insist that those who advocate Woffinden's inclusion do so simply because of their own bias towards speedway, rather than on an at least a partly  balanced basis given other nominees. 

Truth is being a competitor in a minority sport - or an 'irrelevance' - has never been a handicap where the BBC's nominations are concerned. If it were, Lizzy Yarnold would surely not be there (as you said yourself, only 2 out of more than 60 recognised her and on University Challenge recently none did). 

Yet as the greatest ever British Winter Olympian her nomination, to me, is absolutely correct.  

By virtue of his three world  titles, Woffinden can reasonably be stated to be the greatest British speedway rider of all time (or the most 'decorated' one, using the BBC's own term). As such, he isn't just a World Champion.

I would say that  their  achievements are almost identical. Clearly, they both represent minority sports. My view, therefore, is that they should be treated equally.

Your view (because you have stated no criticism of or opposition to her nomination) is that they should be treated entirely differently.  

Which one of us is biased ? 

A thoughtful piece, but sadly so full of generalisations that it loses any meaningful creedence!

 You appear to suggest that I am someone who “wishes to knock the sport”, and my rationale for doing so is that “many of those no longer attend ……….. do so in an attempt to justify their own decision not to go any more”.

 Here are some facts for your to absorb.

 My comments were not designed to, in your own refreshing expression, reflect the views of someone who “wishes to knock the sport”, but to point out that in my non representative quiz, no one recognised Woffenden...FACT.

 I have no need to  justify my own decision not to go any more, given that my nearest track is some 2,300 km. away. That said when I do return to the UK (visits that are now admittedly becoming more infrequent) I tend to take it a meeting.

 I was, in my own clumsy way, pointing out that the BBC had an editorial choice to make. The fact that few people apart from the likes of us have actually heard of Woffenden, let alone recognise him speaks volumes. By contrast I’m no authority on Skeleton Bob Racing, but have  I have heard of Lizzie Arnold, and so to have others...as my unrepresentative quiz illustrated!

 “Your view (because you have stated no criticism of or opposition to her nomination) is that they should be treated entirely differently.” Another of your wild assumptions. I have never expressed such a view. I respect the BBC’s editorial judgement, and if they decided that others should be nominated ahead of Woffenden, is a decision for them. Whilst I may or may not agree with it or not, is not an indication that I consider that they be treated entirely differently.

 So I am not biased, far from it, but I feel your failure to understand ( and accept) the reasons why the BBC reached the decision they did, does say (perhaps) a little more about you!!

Edited by Mr Snackette
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6 hours ago, falcace said:

Is that true? Corrie extras and Rotherham squad men getting Telegraph obituaries? Any evidence of that?

Again, Nigel Boocock is a significant figure for people inside speedway. But outside the speedway bubble?  Not really. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Look at it from the vantage point of the layperson. He was once a member of a GB winning World Cup team in a minority sport. When he shuffles off this mortal coil, do you expect Paul Thorp to be lauded in the national media too?

Okay, let's take everything literally...

Thing is, I have read obituaries for bit-part actors I have never heard of, and lower-level footballers I have never heard of, and quite honestly, I don't really see their significance. However, I accept it.

Recently, we have had obits for a Tibetan monk who was imprisoned by the Chinese, and a Russian dissident who fought for "freedom of thought". You get my drift?

Forget the "speedway bubble"; of course it is now a minority sport, but it wasn't always like that. When Booey was at his peak, speedway was the second most popular spectator sport in Britain, and he can rightly lay claim to be England's best rider of the 1960's. You feel he should only be remembered for being on a winning WTC team? That is doing him a GREAT disservice.

A 20-plus year career, most of which was at the top level. Almost a decade as England's top rider, and probably in the world's top ten for that period. Were that a footballer, a golfer, or a badminton player, that kind of CV would undoubtedly be enough to earn an obituary. In a hugely popular spectator sport of the era, it clearly meant nothing.

For me, it is all about RESPECT. If you are one of the elite, you deserve the respect regardless of your field... What I am saying is that I am not complaining about who IS included, but a small handful who are NOT included.

Steve

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