chunky 6,068 Posted December 24, 2018 9 hours ago, Ray Stadia said: I think most if not all of us on the forum, wish speedway well and wish speedway to return to it's 'heady' days. We ALL want speedway to be better, but I think that there are quite a few on here who simply want it to be the way THEY want it - lock, stock, and barrel. In these modern times of self-appointed experts and keyboard warriors, so many think they have all the answers, however unrealistic and impractical those answers may be. Of course, we have been having these discussions for forty-something years, but the problem right now is that we really can't hang on for much longer. The really sad thing is that there is no "easy" fix. We can certainly improve the sport as it stands, but even if we got every ex-fan back, we would still be in dire straits as the sport isn't a sport for the masses any more. Years ago, even if people didn't go, they at least knew what it was. I have said it before, and I will say it again, but much our our demise has been the result of outside influences. Speedway used to be a largely city-centre sport, but having been forced away from the urban areas by the ever-growing NIMBY population has really hurt. Like Halifaxtiger said, these constant "blinkered head-in the-sand" about those of us who still love the sport are getting very tiresome, and are totally ridiculous. Nothing is perfect. It never has been and never will be. Speedway is a prime example. If you think the good outweighs the bad, that's great. If you think the bad outweighs the good, it's sad, but that;'s fine too. Just please don't attack someone because they aren't as negative and miserable as you are. Steve 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,068 Posted December 24, 2018 8 minutes ago, Byker Biker said: Happy New Year, anyway. Edited 34 minutes ago by moxey63 Wow great to see a positive posting from you I think that was a copy and paste from 1976... Steve 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martinmauger 584 Posted December 24, 2018 (edited) I never tell folk what to do but have posters actually spoken to their own promoter ? I always spoke to promoters at Hull and in a friendly manner told them what I liked / didn't like and made suggestions, some of which were acted upon, though some weren't. I once jokingly told Rob Godfrey at Scunny to "give me his club and I'd show him how to run it" (!). I regretted saying it in a pico-second but fortunately he quickly saw the funny side (me & my sense of humour). Commenting and debating on 'the net' is one thing but ultimately nothing will likely change. King's Lynn, Ipswich & Peterbrough fans will have the ear of the BSPA chairman (assuming he still owns / runs all 3 clubs), why not try telling him how you feel. If folk decide not to go to speedway, well that's a pity but it's up to them, but if fans gradually get to know their promoter(s) and speak to them, as always pick your moments after meetings is usually best, there is probably more change things will change.... Edited December 24, 2018 by martinmauger added info 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted December 25, 2018 Most people who moan about Speedway moan mainly because they are frustrated because we all know how good the sport can be.I went to Torun this year and that was a real eye opener for me a terrific weekend and i was buzzing when i got back.The uk is what it is now,but i have often come home from Swindon disappointed with the entertainment factor but i still keep going.I hope the sport in the U.K can hang on in there but the average age of the younger supporter now is very worrying.Will the sport survive here i think so and Poole have shown with there 2019 side they have stuck to a budget the most ANNOYING thing i find with speedway is the CRAZY rule book. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,224 Posted December 25, 2018 (edited) To paraphrase several contributors.. "It's all about four riders racing each other over four laps, and that's all that is important, so blot everything else out"... Unfortunately, if you want to run the Sport as a bona fide professional Championship with a National Title to be bestowed on the winner, you cannot 'blot everything else out'... Because the credibility and integrity of the competition itself always supercedes the on track action.. As basically if what you are watching is contrived nonsense, then it renders the whole show meaningless... The sport of four riders racing against each other is great to watch, sadly in Britain great races can be completely undermined by the ongoing farce often taking place around them... You can never hope to attract big sponsors to a Sport that actively allowed two seperate Swindon riders to guest for Poole and Kings Lynn on one night, and then swap teams and guest for the other team the next... In a Grand Final...! That sense finally prevailed isn't a positive either, as simply such nonsense shouldn't ever have been suggested, (let alone agreed).. To some people, comments from contributers on here might sometimes appear to be undermining the sport.. I would strongly counter argue that no matter what is said on here, it can in no way undermine the sport more than the self inflicted ludicrous operating model that British Speedway continues to use.. Sort that and it definitely has a chance to progress given its 'raw materials'.. Don't sort it and no amount of 'great racing' will sadly (and frustratingly) ever deliver its true potential... Edited December 25, 2018 by mikebv 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halifaxtiger 5,318 Posted December 26, 2018 7 hours ago, mikebv said: To paraphrase several contributors.. "It's all about four riders racing each other over four laps, and that's all that is important, so blot everything else out"... Unfortunately, if you want to run the Sport as a bona fide professional Championship with a National Title to be bestowed on the winner, you cannot 'blot everything else out'... Because the credibility and integrity of the competition itself always supercedes the on track action.. As basically if what you are watching is contrived nonsense, then it renders the whole show meaningless... The sport of four riders racing against each other is great to watch, sadly in Britain great races can be completely undermined by the ongoing farce often taking place around them... You can never hope to attract big sponsors to a Sport that actively allowed two seperate Swindon riders to guest for Poole and Kings Lynn on one night, and then swap teams and guest for the other team the next... In a Grand Final...! That sense finally prevailed isn't a positive either, as simply such nonsense shouldn't ever have been suggested, (let alone agreed).. To some people, comments from contributers on here might sometimes appear to be undermining the sport.. I would strongly counter argue that no matter what is said on here, it can in no way undermine the sport more than the self inflicted ludicrous operating model that British Speedway continues to use.. Sort that and it definitely has a chance to progress given its 'raw materials'.. Don't sort it and no amount of 'great racing' will sadly (and frustratingly) ever deliver its true potential... I don't think its quite a case of 'blotting everything else out'. Its a case of getting it into perspective. It certainly seems to me that in argument over rules and regulations we ignore or forget about the sheer exciting spectacle that speedway can be. If there were no such rules and regulations (up to a point) just a series of open meetings, I'd still go and I believe that many others would. The watching of two stunning races between Messrs Cook, Fricke, Doyle & Holder at the NSS last season was a better antidote to all the one-upmanship and cheating than anything else imaginable. For a short time (at least), that really doesn't seem to matter and while you do make fair point, I don't think that should simply be brushed aside. I certainly don't think that speedway is 'contrived nonsense' for one single moment. Nor do I believe it lacks credibility. Integrity, on the other hand, is a very different matter. I got told many years ago that if a proposal is made at the BSPA AGM the thoughts of others aren't 'lets think about this' but 'what's in it for him'. We have seen that so many times. While I completely agree that the ludicrous situation that prevailed in the Premiership Grand Final should never have been allowed to happen, it would be entirely inappropriate to paint that as a picture of something that is common place in speedway. It isn't. As to the criticism the sport receives on here, much of it is entirely justified - particularly when that is made by existing fans and is in connection with decisions prompted by self interest. That might undermine speedway but not - to paraphrase your comment - as much as the initial action, and those who make such decisions deserve every bit of flak they get. I am not certain what you mean by the 'operating model'. If that refers to play offs, guests and points limits (for example) I would maintain that they are better than the alternatives. On a final point, it is true that 'great racing' alone may be insufficient to attract the sort of attendances that speedway needs. There's no question in my mind, though, that crowds at places like Belle Vue and Scunthorpe would be significantly less without it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halifaxtiger 5,318 Posted December 26, 2018 On 12/24/2018 at 10:21 PM, martinmauger said: I never tell folk what to do but have posters actually spoken to their own promoter ? I always spoke to promoters at Hull and in a friendly manner told them what I liked / didn't like and made suggestions, some of which were acted upon, though some weren't. I once jokingly told Rob Godfrey at Scunny to "give me his club and I'd show him how to run it" (!). I regretted saying it in a pico-second but fortunately he quickly saw the funny side (me & my sense of humour). Commenting and debating on 'the net' is one thing but ultimately nothing will likely change. King's Lynn, Ipswich & Peterbrough fans will have the ear of the BSPA chairman (assuming he still owns / runs all 3 clubs), why not try telling him how you feel. If folk decide not to go to speedway, well that's a pity but it's up to them, but if fans gradually get to know their promoter(s) and speak to them, as always pick your moments after meetings is usually best, there is probably more change things will change.... In truth, I think promoters should take notice of every single avenue of customer comment wherever that might be. Just because feedback is given on the internet does not mean it is necessarily any less valid than that given verbally. I know Barry Bishop reads this forum regularly and interacts with its members (it is indicative that for every post he makes he gets three likes - a truly remarkable record and one that shows just how much members value his contribution) but he is pretty much alone. Unfortunately, most regard the BSF as 'utterly without credibility' and ignore it. To me, that is very wrong - any business that chooses not to listen to its customers is asking for trouble. I once told then Sheffield promoter David Hoggart that it is a matter of sorting the wheat from the chaff and it remains so today. There are trolls, serial complainers and ex fans with a grudge but there are many who genuinely care and attend regularly. The other thing I would say is that I have had very mixed experiences in approaching promoters direct when being critical. Reactions have ranged from careful interest (Martin Widman springs to mind) to dismissal and outright abuse. If you think you are going to get fair hearing, fine. Be prepared, however, to be completely disillusioned. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,224 Posted December 26, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said: I don't think its quite a case of 'blotting everything else out'. Its a case of getting it into perspective. It certainly seems to me that in argument over rules and regulations we ignore or forget about the sheer exciting spectacle that speedway can be. If there were no such rules and regulations (up to a point) just a series of open meetings, I'd still go and I believe that many others would. The watching of two stunning races between Messrs Cook, Fricke, Doyle & Holder at the NSS last season was a better antidote to all the one-upmanship and cheating than anything else imaginable. For a short time (at least), that really doesn't seem to matter and while you do make fair point, I don't think that should simply be brushed aside. I certainly don't think that speedway is 'contrived nonsense' for one single moment. Nor do I believe it lacks credibility. Integrity, on the other hand, is a very different matter. I got told many years ago that if a proposal is made at the BSPA AGM the thoughts of others aren't 'lets think about this' but 'what's in it for him'. We have seen that so many times. While I completely agree that the ludicrous situation that prevailed in the Premiership Grand Final should never have been allowed to happen, it would be entirely inappropriate to paint that as a picture of something that is common place in speedway. It isn't. As to the criticism the sport receives on here, much of it is entirely justified - particularly when that is made by existing fans and is in connection with decisions prompted by self interest. That might undermine speedway but not - to paraphrase your comment - as much as the initial action, and those who make such decisions deserve every bit of flak they get. I am not certain what you mean by the 'operating model'. If that refers to play offs, guests and points limits (for example) I would maintain that they are better than the alternatives. On a final point, it is true that 'great racing' alone may be insufficient to attract the sort of attendances that speedway needs. There's no question in my mind, though, that crowds at places like Belle Vue and Scunthorpe would be significantly less without it. It doesn't lack credibility HT? Poole's Brady Kurtz top scoring for BV to knock Swindon out of the Play offs because Craig Cook is booked to ride on the same night for Glasgow in the 2nd Division v Ipswich, (a team he joined a couple of weeks before) is credible is it? Doesn't letting teams swap riders in a Grand Final (neither of whom are their riders in the first place) suggest just a slight, modicum, tiny, lack of credibilty maybe?... If you run Speedway as a team sport there needs to be an emotional loyalty/attachment within its base to be successful.. The 'operating model' it follows completely undermines that... For example, I gained no satisfaction as a BV fan by beating Swindon that night, why should I? It wasn't 'my rider' leading the team, as the sport planned him to be 'somewhere else' riding for 'someone else'... I also am sure many Swindon fans were a tad peed off that a Poole rider effectively ended their season that night. Through no fault of their own, their opposition were allowed to turn up with a rider who ride's their track probably much better than the rider he replaced... (Now if that isn't contrived nonsense what is?).. And overall, when such a thing is allowed to happen, the competition itself becomes completely devalued so why really bother attending it? (And possibly more importantly, sponsoring it?) Why bother investing your emotional loyalty into a sport that can allow such nonsense to take place and destroy your teams season after you have paid a good few quid following them through the year? If you run the sport as a team sport , you simply cannot divide the racing from the competitions rules and say "just focus on the racing" as both are completely interlinked.. You seem to watch Speedway as a 'neutral' on many occasions around the country, (something I did too for many years).. I could go and watch 'the racing' and not actually care who won or lost as I had no affiliation to either of the many teams I watched.. This led to a 'good night' on most occasions. . Maybe that is the way British Speedway should go? ie no 'team racing' just 'racing'... The clear fact is, if it cannot run credible competitions then it can never be successful, as major sponsors and the mainstream media wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, and fans (as we see ongoing) eventually lose that emotional attachment to their team, that is so vital for them to keep attending.... PS (I hope I haven't just scuppered a multi million pound Coca Cola or McDonald's sponsorship, or kyboshed a Saturday night prime time BBC deal for next season by this post).. Edited December 26, 2018 by mikebv Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,610 Posted December 26, 2018 I never knew any Swindon fans who worried about Cook being replaced by Kurtz first of all guests has always been a part of the sport and all fans on both sides thought Kurtz made Belle Vue weaker before the match As has been Pointed out last year was the best year in a long time for teams using Guests Swindon for Example put out the same team more times than they had in for years but it made it little difference to there crowds . The trouble is thou speedway has been ran badly in the uk for a number of the years you always going to get a group of fans wo will moan no matter what and have no answers to the things they are moaning about . You only have looked at what happened when they brought in fixed race nights to lower the amount of guests ,the moment it happened the moaners wanted to go back to fix race nights and more guests within in a week 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halifaxtiger 5,318 Posted December 26, 2018 15 minutes ago, mikebv said: It doesn't lack credibility HT? Poole's Brady Kurtz top scoring for BV to knock Swindon out of the Play offs because Craig Cook is booked to ride on the same night for Glasgow in the 2nd Division v Ipswich, (a team he joined a couple of weeks before) is credible is it? Doesn't letting teams swap riders in a Grand Final (neither of whom are their riders in the first place) suggest just a slight, modicum, tiny, lack of credibilty maybe?... If you run Speedway as a team sport there needs to be an emotional loyalty/attachment within its base to be successful.. The 'operating model' it follows completely undermines that... For example, I gained no satisfaction as a BV fan by beating Swindon that night, why should I? It wasn't 'my rider' leading the team, as the sport planned him to be 'somewhere else' riding for 'someone else'... I also am sure many Swindon fans were a tad peed off that a Poole rider effectively ended their season that night. Through no fault of their own, their opposition were allowed to turn up with a rider who ride's their track probably much better than the rider he replaced... (Now if that isn't contrived nonsense what is?).. And overall, when such a thing is allowed to happen, the competition itself becomes completely devalued so why really bother attending it? (And possibly more importantly, sponsoring it?) Why bother investing your emotional loyalty into a sport that can allow such nonsense to take place and destroy your teams season after you have paid a good few quid following them through the year? If you run the sport as a team sport , you simply cannot divide the racing from the competitions rules and say "just focus on the racing" as both are completely interlinked.. You seem to watch Speedway as a 'neutral' on many occasions around the country, (something I did too for many years).. I could go and watch 'the racing' and not actually care who won or lost as I had no affiliation to either of the many teams I watched.. This led to a 'good night' on most occasions. . Maybe that is the way British Speedway should go? ie no 'team racing' just 'racing'... The clear fact is, if it cannot run credible competitions then it can never be successful, as major sponsors and the mainstream media wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, and fans (as we see ongoing) eventually lose that emotional attachment to their team, that is so vital for them to keep attending.... PS (I hope I haven't just scuppered a huge Coca Cola, McDonald's, BBC deal for next season by this post).. Guest facilities have been in place in speedway for 50 years or more. They aren't new. As an example, White City won the 1977 championship using rider replacement for a rider (Dag Lovaas) who had made it clear that he wouldn't be riding that season. The same year, Hackney used a guest in all but 6 of their fixtures. You could argue from that that speedway has never had any credibility, yet it is only in recent times that it has become an issue for some. There's a good reason why speedway has guests, and that is the alternatives. If Swindon lost Jason Doyle for 4 weeks during next season, without guests they would need to find a temporary replacement (which, for a rider of his calibre for a short period of time would be difficult) or use rider replacement or a no 8, dramatically weakening the team. My suspicion is that most fans would sooner see a rider of equivalent ability taking his place. You can argue that is contrived; I'd say it was common sense. Hence why the facility has been around for so long. The same is true about points limits : Can you seriously imagine what sort of team Glasgow would have if there weren't some means to control it ? Word is they offered a 2.00 rider £10k to sign I'd also say that fans viewpoints about such issues are changeable depending on how it serves them. Reading the Mildenhall facebook page earlier this year, their fans absolutely laid into the play off system, saying that they were the true champions, they had been robbed by a 'ridiculous' system, were never going again and invoking all sorts of threats and curses upon the BSPA, the NL and anyone else they thought might be to blame. They have short memories : in 2012 they won the NL through the play offs, Dudley finishing top of the table. I doubt if any expressed the same viewpoints then. The problem is not the guest system so much as the fact that doubling up has been allowed to get stupidly out of control. I think they are interlinked in the way that you say but, for me, the racing comes first and sometimes I think that is utterly lost in complaints about rules and regulations. It shouldn't be. I'd maintain that when speedway is very good the rules suddenly don't seem to matter as much. Being a neutral is a double edged sword. You miss out on the lows, but you don't get the highs, either. A very good example was when Plymouth won the PL 4's a couple of seasons back and my pals from the south west invaded the track and were in the team photograph. I was sat with them that day and as delighted as I was for them, I didn't and couldn't share it. PS If it is a matter of criticism, I'll have scuppered a few deals myself 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,242 Posted December 26, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Halifaxtiger said: Guest facilities have been in place in speedway for 50 years or more. They aren't new. As an example, White City won the 1977 championship using rider replacement for a rider (Dag Lovaas) who had made it clear that he wouldn't be riding that season. The same year, Hackney used a guest in all but 6 of their fixtures. You could argue from that that speedway has never had any credibility, yet it is only in recent times that it has become an issue for some. There's a good reason why speedway has guests, and that is the alternatives. If Swindon lost Jason Doyle for 4 weeks during next season, without guests they would need to find a temporary replacement (which, for a rider of his calibre for a short period of time would be difficult) or use rider replacement or a no 8, dramatically weakening the team. My suspicion is that most fans would sooner see a rider of equivalent ability taking his place. You can argue that is contrived; I'd say it was common sense. Hence why the facility has been around for so long. The same is true about points limits : Can you seriously imagine what sort of team Glasgow would have if there weren't some means to control it ? Word is they offered a 2.00 rider £10k to sign I'd also say that fans viewpoints about such issues are changeable depending on how it serves them. Reading the Mildenhall facebook page earlier this year, their fans absolutely laid into the play off system, saying that they were the true champions, they had been robbed by a 'ridiculous' system, were never going again and invoking all sorts of threats and curses upon the BSPA, the NL and anyone else they thought might be to blame. They have short memories : in 2012 they won the NL through the play offs, Dudley finishing top of the table. I doubt if any expressed the same viewpoints then. The problem is not the guest system so much as the fact that doubling up has been allowed to get stupidly out of control. I think they are interlinked in the way that you say but, for me, the racing comes first and sometimes I think that is utterly lost in complaints about rules and regulations. It shouldn't be. I'd maintain that when speedway is very good the rules suddenly don't seem to matter as much. Being a neutral is a double edged sword. You miss out on the lows, but you don't get the highs, either. A very good example was when Plymouth won the PL 4's a couple of seasons back and my pals from the south west invaded the track and were in the team photograph. I was sat with them that day and as delighted as I was for them, I didn't and couldn't share it. PS If it is a matter of criticism, I'll have scuppered a few deals myself ... Just to put the record straight and for what it's worth White City were granted, and indeed encouraged, a facility by the BSPA as they had, prior to Dag's decision, released Richard Greer to a struggling Birmingham promotion and were therefore two heat leaders short There were no ready made replacements due to a shortage of heat leader standard riders so introduced the untried British League Marek Cieslak who proved an inspiration especailly around Wood Lane. Indeed both Hackney and Hull were granted the Rider Replacement facilty for the season and Hackney were also able to utilise guests for the soon to be injured Dave Morton on his 1976 average which was somewhat more superior to his 1977 version. 'The Rebels' also lost Paul Gachet soon into the season due to a badly broken ankle but won the league thru' sheer determination and team ethic and were worthy champions. Yes there have always been Guest riders (first introduced prior to the 1955(?) season) but even during my time following the sport it became abused (as did the Rider Replacement facility) and some Team Managers (stand up Ian Thomas!) manipulated the rule book to serve thier team's needs Edited December 26, 2018 by steve roberts 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
geoff100 1,420 Posted December 26, 2018 The same year my mighty " comets" used r/r for mal mackay all year for a broken leg sustained in 1974, he rode 1 match i think in 75 and broke it again dont think he ever rode again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,224 Posted December 26, 2018 What you could get away with years ago isn't the case in our modern instant news digital age... When I turned up at Hyde Rd to see PC and found out Larry Ross or Martin Ashby replaced him as he was in West Germany for a long track meeting on the Sunday, I had already paid to get in.. Now I know if Jason Doyle will be missing several days in advance, and also will be aware of any spurious reason as to why.. And don't forget crowds were invariably delivered not by domestic speedway but the national team doing well over many Saturday afternoons on World of Sport... You literally had generic sporting 'household names' appearing at your local track so many 'non regulars' ventured down to watch them on the back of their reputations.... Now we have Woffy as probably the only name any non Speedway follower in the country can recognise as a Speedway rider.. Maybe a strong National team will help kickstart the sport domestically again in this country.. Heres hoping Woffy is allowed to influence it and lead it.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,912 Posted December 26, 2018 15 minutes ago, mikebv said: What you could get away with years ago isn't the case in our modern instant news digital age... When I turned up at Hyde Rd to see PC and found out Larry Ross or Martin Ashby replaced him as he was in West Germany for a long track meeting on the Sunday, I had already paid to get in.. Now I know if Jason Doyle will be missing several days in advance, and also will be aware of any spurious reason as to why.. It took promoters a long time to get used to the internet though.Was it less than a decade ago that I think the Berwick promoter was using the Russian league as an excuse as to why they couldn’t sign any young European riders,when with the magic of the internet anyone could look up the teams and see there was only about 2 non-Russian youngsters riding there!The Matej Ferjan fiasco when he was supposedly waiting for a passport to ride for Hungary,so couldn’t ride for Poole,then popped up in the far north of Germany to ride there!Even things like Eddie Kenneth being announced to ride in Germany when he was known to be out for a while with a broken leg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iwright71 206 Posted December 27, 2018 On 12/22/2018 at 8:09 PM, Richard Weston said: Time for some on this forum to turn over a new leaf in 2019. Sponsors and potential sponsors will carry out "diligence" on any rider/club they are thinking of putting money into. If you search online, stuff from the BSF comes up. Just ask yourself: Are my comments helping destroy the sport and clubs I love? There are some, who no longer attend, that have a devil-may-care attitude – they should now pipe down, And, for those of us who watch speedway week in week out – and often at a number of tracks – should speak out against the terrible negativity. Let's try and be positive in 2019. It would probably do the forum good to be slimmed down in size and to mirror the current state of speedway to be populated by a hardy but small band of enthusiasts exuding positivity about the sport. Even the pro speedway, Speedway Star felt duty bound to produce a 45 page special edition of how the sport was in crisis , not much positivity in that particular issue. While on a positive note what exactly came out of this years AGM that is going to turn the sport around ? nothing as far as I can see. Its probable to expect a very similar season to last year with probably not as good weather, 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
