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Transponders and qualifying times introduced in GP’s in 2019

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On 2/10/2019 at 11:41 PM, PHILIPRISING said:

BECAUSE the riders want it. Maybe of no interest or value to fans (including the likes of me) but riders will take note of who is doing what. It is in their nature. They are speed merchants. Who is the fastest matters to them, not in terms of the actual meeting, but almost as a matter of pride. It's in their dna. Once had a heated discussion with Tony Rickardsson at the only FIM Gala Dinner I have attended. He was an ardent fan of transponders. Believed that everyone was interested in times. Tried to argue that fans don't care whether a race lasts 59.0, 59.2 or 59.8 seconds. It is the entertainment provided in the race no matter its duration that matters. He wasn't convinced... by a long way!

Transponders are long overdue. Race times are not all that important in speedway, but if you're going to record them then it's ridiculous that speedway is still using old fashioned methods. Transponders are also advantageous for determining close finishes though, and would allow unreliable starting tapes to be done away with. 

As for 'qualifying' in speedway - pretty pointless. Speedway isn't about lap times, but position in a race, and the audience knowing that a rider has gone one-tenth quicker than another during the last lap doesn't really tell you anything when you can see all the riders out on track for yourself.

If the riders really do want it, then it just proves you should never ask sportspeople on how to run their sport. If you want to make qualifying exciting (or force riders to turn up), then have a few races to determines who gets the favourable starting positions. 

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20 hours ago, Dornier fixer said:

So !   When its a close finish its the rider who gets his ponder over the line first who wins and not the rider who gets his front wheel over first...

In MX and Flat track at least the transponders are all fitted on the top of the left fork leg between the yokes and everybody has to fit them in the same place. There are two wires about a foot apart in the ground and the transponder is recorded by them so instead of the front wheel it will be the top of the fork leg or for spectating purposes the handlebars are close enough.

Can't see them being used for jump starts as that is another system and probably an expensive one.

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1 hour ago, Mark said:

where will the transponder be fitted to make sure everyone gets the same deal ?   if the referee is using the transponder to determine who wins in a close finish it opens a can of worms if two bikes have a transponder fitted in a different position on each bike.   

For recording individual lap times it could be put anywhere on the bike.  Assume the timing starts when the transponder goes over the start line by sending a signal to a fixed point and the same happens to finish the lap.

Inside the fork cover that is supplied by BSI and cant be fiddled with. I said so earlier.

EDIT: or if the system is rfid based you put the sticker on top of the front axle to the outside fork.

Edited by f-s-p

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What about riders having engines just for fridays time trials... One for use, one spare both built for that one minute fast one and then serviced for the next round??? They’d cost 5500€ each if I’d buy them.

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On 2/10/2019 at 6:15 PM, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

If you are using the transponders to decide close finishes it has to be 

Surely it's time based - It wouldn't matter if one person had his transponder on the front forks and the other on the back mudguard... The time for it to get around the track would be the same time.

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14 minutes ago, Najjer said:

Surely it's time based - It wouldn't matter if one person had his transponder on the front forks and the other on the back mudguard... The time for it to get around the track would be the same time.

Time will all start at same point when tapes rise

Clock will stop when cross the line so will be a significant difference from front to back of bike

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1 hour ago, Najjer said:

Surely it's time based - It wouldn't matter if one person had his transponder on the front forks and the other on the back mudguard... The time for it to get around the track would be the same time.

It's first past the post, not who did the fastest time, although logically in most cases, that is the same person.

Otherwise you could have a rider deliberately missing the gate by a few second to give himself a free run around at the back in a faster time than the rider who crosses the line first? ;)

Edited by Gambo
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1 hour ago, Najjer said:

Surely it's time based - It wouldn't matter if one person had his transponder on the front forks and the other on the back mudguard... The time for it to get around the track would be the same time.

Badly flawed view 

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3 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

Time will all start at same point when tapes rise

Clock will stop when cross the line so will be a significant difference from front to back of bike

Start the clock when they cross the line and end the clock when they finish it. That is the most logical way of it working.

2 hours ago, Gambo said:

It's first past the post, not who did the fastest time, although logically in most cases, that is the same person.

Otherwise you could have a rider deliberately missing the gate by a few second to give himself a free run around at the back in a faster time than the rider who crosses the line first? ;)

Whoever crosses the line first, would have the fastest time!

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3 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

Time will all start at same point when tapes rise

Clock will stop when cross the line so will be a significant difference from front to back of bike

With transponders they give the system a ”hit” when they cross the line. So no, it will start timing when you cross the line, not when tapes go up.

And yes, it does not matter at all where your ponder is on friday. But as they are supposed to ve used for close finished in the meeting, it matters a great deal.

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1 hour ago, Najjer said:

Start the clock when they cross the line and end the clock when they finish it. That is the most logical way of it working.

Whoever crosses the line first, would have the fastest time!

Not if the clock doesnt start until the ponder crosses the line - as Gambo points out a rider could sit for a few seconds finish many yards behind yet post the fatest time from the ponder result

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It's quite simple really.....the Referee would start the timer with the tapes button and the transponder would stop the timing when it crosses the line.

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I can't understand why people are thinking this is so complicated. How do they think it works in F1 (answer = one transponder located in standard position at front of car, and backup transponder located in standard position at back of car*)?

Just put the transponder in a standard position on the front of the bike, most likely under the fork cover. The difference in positioning from bike-to-bike will be millimetres, but will have no consequences for timed qualifying because it'll all be relative.

For racing, if there's an extremely close finish, most good timing systems have an option for a photo finish which I think is determined by a beam across the track of some sort. So if there's any discrepancy because of minute differences in the positioning of transponders, that should be able to sort it out, and is also what happens in F1. 

Obviously in a race, the clock needs to start when the tapes go up (or when the green light goes out if that's used). The race begins at that moment, not when a rider crosses the start line (which potentially they may never do) - it would be utterly daft to base the results of a race on how quickly someone rode around the circuit if they finished behind someone else. :rolleyes:

* It's not unknown for one of the transponders in an F1 car to fail, so sometimes times will only be recorded from the rear transponder.

Edited by Humphrey Appleby
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From a sporting perspective, it's a fairly interesting development...no more. The idea that the fastest rider gets to choose the best riding position is a bit underwhelming. But there is potential here. If there were bonus points to be gained from qualifying, that might make it more interesting, say 5-3-2-1 for the top four?

From a tech perspective, this could open the door to more interesting developments. I find swimming a very boring sport. But at the Olympics and major televised meets, I do like the red line of the world record that is superimposed onto the race. I wonder if something similar could be used for speedway? In a boring race for example, it becomes a whole lot more interesting if Tai Woffinden is chasing down the track record. 

I have also long thought starting tapes to be very old fashioned. Surely, the GPs could easily use a laser beam device, which could provide absolute accuracy for any 'tape' touching. It could also be used to decide any particularly tight finishes - the winner breaks the beam first.

 

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Surely tapes-up for qualifying is irrelevant as they're measuring a flying lap aren't they?  Agreed for the races that riders will want a standard position on the bike.  I also like the idea of measuring actual mph during a race (like they do with skiing for example) - they'd need readers at multiple points though so they may consider it too expensive......

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