Rob Godfrey interview in Speedway Star

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

5 hours ago, BWitcher said:

No Sidney. You are wrong as you STILL don't understand what we are talking about.

Nobody is saying the BRITISH leagues are as strong now because the top riders don't ride here. The comparison, as I have told you over and over would be Poland where they do.

 

5 hours ago, BWitcher said:

No Sidney. You are wrong as you STILL don't understand what we are talking about.

Nobody is saying the BRITISH leagues are as strong now because the top riders don't ride here. The comparison, as I have told you over and over would be Poland where they do.

You comment on something no DISRESPECT to you  but you did not see these riders did you????? How do you no how i  percieve  thing's ?.Lets look at it from another angle i started watching speedway in 68/69 i don't pretend to know more than Norbold/ Aces 69 who had knowledge and experience of watching these riders live ( i.e.) Knutsson.Craven ( etc) did averages come into my way of thinking certainly not opinions usually are based on the memory bank.

[steve roberts 9,242]

6 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

So you disagree with Sidney then?

You're not quoting registered 'likes' again. I've already covered that in a previous post if you had bothered to read it.

[BWitcher 12,453]

8 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

You're not quoting registered 'likes' again. I've already covered that in a previous post if you had bothered to read it.

So you're liking things you don't agree with? Rather strange.

Simple question, is your judgement of riders effected by how often you see them the win races.. yes or no?

Edited February 17, 2019 by BWitcher

[BWitcher 12,453]

16 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

 

You comment on something no DISRESPECT to you  but you did not see these riders did you????? How do you no how i  percieve  thing's ?.Lets look at it from another angle i started watching speedway in 68/69 i don't pretend to know more than Norbold/ Aces 69 who had knowledge and experience of watching these riders live ( i.e.) Knutsson.Craven ( etc) did averages come into my way of thinking certainly not opinions usually are based on the memory bank.

There you go again with the same nonsense. Averages is just a measuring stick.

The more you saw riders win, the better you thought they were.. their average being higher was just a consequence of that. There is no other way of judging the overall ability of a speedway rider. Yes you can throw in skills such as team riding etc to further refine things but in a nutshell winning races is what counts.

Are riders like Kenneth Bjerre, Jakob Jamrog and Jack Holder top class riders in your eyes Sidney?

Edited February 17, 2019 by BWitcher

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv 10,693]

11 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

You're trying to set out something that is completely irrelevant to the point being made. You've also failed miserably in your objective.

A larger league has more heat leaders. Absolute indisputable fact.

A larger league will have more riders achieving higher averages and losing less often. Absolute indisputable fact.

A larger league creates an impression that some riders are great, whereas in another format they may not be viewed that way.

The scenario you have tried to create was essentially impossible as there weren't and never will be that many 'world class' riders. In every single era of speedway there has ever been there have always been a small group of riders ahead of the others, then a group behind and so on down the levels.

 

 

I agree with all your 'indisputable facts' because they are indeed indisputable

I would disagree my suggested scenario is essentially impossible

I used the term 'world class' as the examples being used were of extremes and this would be the opposite to the 'rookies'

In reality those introduced would only had to have been marginally better than Staechman and Parker rather than actual world class for it to prove true and that would not have been 'essentially impossible' 

8 team league 56 riders The riders is postions 20 - 35 are likely to be around 6 point average 

16 team league with new riders at lower end those same 6 pointers will become 8 pointers (20/35 out of 112)

16 team league with new riders at higher end those same 6 pointers will become 4 pointers (70/85 out of 112)

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

10 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

There you go again with the same nonsense. Averages is just a measuring stick.

The more you saw riders win, the better you thought they were.. their average being higher was just a consequence of that. There is no other way of judging the overall ability of a speedway rider. Yes you can throw in skills such as team riding etc to further refine things but in a nutshell winning races is what counts.

Are riders like Kenneth Bjerre, Jakob Jamrog and Jack Holder top class riders in your eyes Sidney?

I don't listen to what you say pie in the sky notions what so Ivan Mauger averaged 11.74 ( it was lowered  later) my opinion was on his stats really.????  Of course not even  in his fourties when he averaged 8 plus to 9 points a meeting he was still a good rider averages don't come into it also you comment on riders you did not see live your knowledge is from the 90s onwards.

[BWitcher 12,453]

6 minutes ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

I agree with all your 'indisputable facts' because they are indeed indisputable

I would disagree my suggested scenario is essentially impossible

I used the term 'world class' as the examples being used were of extremes and this would be the opposite to the 'rookies'

In reality those introduced would only had to have been marginally better than Staechman and Parker rather than actual world class for it to prove true and that would not have been 'essentially impossible' 

8 team league 56 riders The riders is postions 20 - 35 are likely to be around 6 point average 

16 team league with new riders at lower end those same 6 pointers will become 8 pointers (20/35 out of 112)

16 team league with new riders at higher end those same 6 pointers will become 4 pointers (70/85 out of 112)

At that time the British League was still the strongest league with most of, if not all the top riders racing here. 

Feel free to name 70 riders better than Staechman and Parker who could have come into the league and been stronger than them?

You can't get a more accurate comparison than 94/95/96 as it's the same pool of riders... 

The point is, had you watched Staechman and Parker and riders of that ilk in the 'bigger league' format over a ten year period they would be remembered more fondly than such a rider over a ten year period in the smaller format. 

[steve roberts 9,242]

2 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

So you're liking things you don't agree with? Rather strange.

Simple question, is your judgement of riders effected by how often you seem the win races.. yes or no?

Are you being particularly obtuse as  regards the 'like' option? I've covered that in detail in all it's permutations and it's very apparent use when some contributors register that option by their sometimes clarification of why they choose to do so or not as the case might be. Hopefully that's the end of that particular line of enquiry.

As regards 'judgement of riders' I've covered that in previous posts and my overall assessment of a rider can vary depending on a rider's prowess and overall ability as was the example I gave between John Davis and Gordon Kennett who were both very successful speedsters but whose techniques were different in reaching the same goal.

Now can I ask you for a long outstanding answer to a statement that you made 12-18 months regarding that many riders during the seventies achieved team places within only a few weeks sitting on a bike. It was established that those with grasstrack experience were exempt.  Examples please?

 

[BWitcher 12,453]

Just now, Sidney the robin said:

I don't listen to what you say pie in the sky notions what so Ivan Mauger averaged 11.74 ( it was lowered  later) my opinion was on his stats really.????  Of course not even  in his fourties when he averaged 8 plus to 9 points a meeting he was still a good rider averages don't come into it also you comment on riders you did not see live your knowledge is from the 90s onwards.

Your opinion that Mauger was a great was because he was winning most of his races!!!!  The 'average' is simply a by product of that.

Feel free to name a rider that you thought was World Class who didn't win many races... 

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

Just now, BWitcher said:

Your opinion that Mauger was a great was because he was winning most of his races!!!!  The 'average' is simply a by product of that.

Feel free to name a rider that you thought was World Class who didn't win many races... 

My opinion of Mauger did not change from averaging 11.74 to when he was doing home meetings only at Exeter in 1984.The same with Eric Boocock he came back in 1983 was unsuccessful but his reputation stayed in tact a class act over a long period of time think about it.??

[BWitcher 12,453]

4 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

 

As regards 'judgement of riders' I've covered that in previous posts and my overall assessment of a rider can vary depending on a rider's prowess and overall ability as was the example I gave between John Davis and Gordon Kennett who were both very successful speedsters but whose techniques were different in reaching the same goal.

 

 

No, your post only once again backed up what I was saying. All your post did was clarify how you ranked/differentiated two riders with similar achievements. They only came into the conversation because you saw them winning lots of races.

The more you see a rider win races, the better you are going to think they are. That's just reality.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv 10,693]

5 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

At that time the British League was still the strongest league with most of, if not all the top riders racing here. 

Feel free to name 70 riders better than Staechman and Parker who could have come into the league and been stronger than them?

You can't get a more accurate comparison than 94/95/96 as it's the same pool of riders... 

The point is, had you watched Staechman and Parker and riders of that ilk in the 'bigger league' format over a ten year period they would be remembered more fondly than such a rider over a ten year period in the smaller format. 

Essentially we are agreeing again

Where the rider pool is stable then comparisons are relatively accurate

My original point was that the statistics are less reliable when the rider pool and mix changes (ie between eras) which you have showed yourself too

[BWitcher 12,453]

1 minute ago, Sidney the robin said:

My opinion of Mauger did not change from averaging 11.74 to when he was doing home meetings only at Exeter in 1984.The same with Eric Boocock he came back in 1983 was unsuccessful but his reputation stayed in tact a class act over a long period of time think about it.??

??? 

That's because he'd already won six World Championships.

So, if Mauger rode his entire career at the level he did in 1984, never won six World titles as a result, never had the 11.74 and other 10 and 11+ point seasons, you claim you would still have ranked him the same?

Same question for Boocock.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

1 minute ago, BWitcher said:

No, your post only once again backed up what I was saying. All your post did was clarify how you ranked/differentiated two riders with similar achievements. They only came into the conversation because you saw them winning lots of races.

The more you see a rider win races, the better you are going to think they are. That's just reality.

If you see a rider regularly surely that puts you in a stronger position to comment.

[BWitcher 12,453]

Just now, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

Essentially we are agreeing again

Where the rider pool is stable then comparisons are relatively accurate

My original point was that the statistics are less reliable when the rider pool and mix changes (ie between eras) which you have showed yourself too

No I have never done that. I have simply illustrated the differences between a large league and a smaller league. The rider pool is irrelevant, the results will always be the same.

My comparison of eras only comes into play when assessing how riders ranked 20-35 are perceived in an era of a 'big league' and an era now of smaller leagues by looking at that group of riders in the strongest leagues of the time. 

All any of this boils down to is the simple, indisputable (unless you are Sidney) reality that the more you see a rider win, the better you will think they are.