Ivan Mauger. Belle Vue. 1969/72

[steve roberts 9,242]

4 hours ago, E I Addio said:

I think that you are right about Ivan’s extraordinary dominance in those years Sid, but the thing that always intrigues me is what if Ivan had been born 5 years earlier or the “Big Five “ Of Ove , Briggs, Moore , Craven and Knutson had been born 5 years later.

The thing is when Fundin, Briggs , Craven, Moore  , and later Knutson were at there peaks they always had each other to have to beat.. In the years you mention Fundin Craven and Knutson were no longer around , Moore was just coming back from a six year retirement and both he and Briggo were in their mid to later thirties and just starting to be past their best . Ivan though, in those years was in the age range 29- 33 , just about the point when most speedway riders were at the peak of their powers. 

Its all speculation of course, but I don’t think Ivan would have been as dominant if he had to deal with the other 5 at their peaks on a regular basis.  Good though Olsen was, I don’t think he was in the same class as Fundin etc.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

I'm just reading Jackie Stewart's autobiography "Winning Is Not Enough" and having read Ivan's book "Will To Win" there were great similarities as regards their approach to their given sport/life and therefore achievements. Personally I think Ivan would have been succesful whatever the era as he was deep thinking and was always looking at ways of bettering himself whether it was mechanically or state of mind and Jackie had the same mentality.

[chunky 6,086]

22 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I'm just reading Jackie Stewart's autobiography "Winning Is Not Enough" and having read Ivan's book "Will To Win" there were great similarities as regards their approach to their given sport/life and therefore achievements. Personally I think Ivan would have been succesful whatever the era as he was deep thinking and was always looking at ways of bettering himself whether it was mechanically or state of mind and Jackie had the same mentality.

We've said it before, but the top riders from a particular era would have been top riders in ANY era. That approach to sport/life would apply to virtually every true great in any sport.

The key to it is not wanting to be better than everybody else, but to be the best that you can be. It doesn't matter if you are already the best - you can be better...

Of course, not everybody can/does become THE best (you can't control how good others become), but the important thing is that the desire is there. Particularly these days, too many individuals (in all sports) are cocky and complacent, and think they are "it", and think they don't have to apply themselves. If you don't want to put in the effort, that's fine, but don't whine when somebody comes along and knocks you off your pedestal...

Steve

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

6 hours ago, E I Addio said:

I think that you are right about Ivan’s extraordinary dominance in those years Sid, but the thing that always intrigues me is what if Ivan had been born 5 years earlier or the “Big Five “ Of Ove , Briggs, Moore , Craven and Knutson had been born 5 years later.

The thing is when Fundin, Briggs , Craven, Moore  , and later Knutson were at there peaks they always had each other to have to beat.. In the years you mention Fundin Craven and Knutson were no longer around , Moore was just coming back from a six year retirement and both he and Briggo were in their mid to later thirties and just starting to be past their best . Ivan though, in those years was in the age range 29- 33 , just about the point when most speedway riders were at the peak of their powers. 

Its all speculation of course, but I don’t think Ivan would have been as dominant if he had to deal with the other 5 at their peaks on a regular basis.  Good though Olsen was, I don’t think he was in the same class as Fundin etc.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

Yes that top five Addio was outstandingI i really believe Bjorn gets forgotten he scared all of those other greats to death.Bjorn retired prematurely Ronnie for me was a 1950s man who after his gap from British racing comeback great Ron was a real star.Olsen is a rider i have always admired he won three title's the same as Nicki but for me was in a different league that era was tough.1973/78 Mauger, Olsen,Collins, Michanek, Lee, Jansson( his time was coming), Crump( on the Streety conversion were the top riders.In that respect the GP series now is the same six /eight who are the best with others on there day capable of having there day.The top five you mentioned have to be one of the best generation's we have had Craven aged 29 .killed approaching his peak   Moore had six years off Knutsson retired in a way Speedway was robbed a real shame as all five were legend's.

[E I Addio 15,843]

39 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Yes that top five Addio was outstandingI i really believe Bjorn gets forgotten he scared all of those other greats to death.Bjorn retired prematurely Ronnie for me was a 1950s man who after his gap from British racing comeback great Ron was a real star.Olsen is a rider i have always admired he won three title's the same as Nicki but for me was in a different league that era was tough.1973/78 Mauger, Olsen,Collins, Michanek, Lee, Jansson( his time was coming), Crump( on the Streety conversion were the top riders.In that respect the GP series now is the same six /eight who are the best with others on there day capable of having there day.The top five you mentioned have to be one of the best generation's we have had Craven aged 29 .killed approaching his peak   Moore had six years off Knutsson retired in a way Speedway was robbed a real shame as all five were legend's.

A lot of respected speedway historians say that Ronnie Moore was the most naturally gifted man ever to sit on a s speedway bike. I am not in a position to judge, as I only saw him once or twice when he was approaching 40 years old and obviously past his best but he still sticks in my mind as  an immaculate stylist. I would love to have seen him round Wimbledon at his peak.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

2 hours ago, E I Addio said:

A lot of respected speedway historians say that Ronnie Moore was the most naturally gifted man ever to sit on a s speedway bike. I am not in a position to judge, as I only saw him once or twice when he was approaching 40 years old and obviously past his best but he still sticks in my mind as  an immaculate stylist. I would love to have seen him round Wimbledon at his peak.

Can't disagree with that Addio he was a real stylist a gentleman to, i have never heard anyone say a bad word about him.Like yourself i only see Mirac ride four or five times but he was a terrific rider he rode great lines and he never looked the quickest but his trackcraft was as good as anybody.One of my biggest regrets was i never got to see Craven or Knutsson ride but both would rank high on anyone's alltime great list.

[steve roberts 9,242]

10 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

Can't disagree with that Addio he was a real stylist a gentleman to, i have never heard anyone say a bad word about him.Like yourself i only see Mirac ride four or five times but he was a terrific rider he rode great lines and he never looked the quickest but his trackcraft was as good as anybody.One of my biggest regrets was i never got to see Craven or Knutsson ride but both would rank high on anyone's alltime great list.

I saw Ronnie ride at Poole during his last season in the UK and he was superlative. Never saw Peter Craven ride but I do know that his track record at Cowley (63 secs) stood for over a decade and was only lowered when the track was shortened! Another rider I wished I could have seen was Igor Plechanov who had, if I recall, two outstanding World Final performances against his name.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

13 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I saw Ronnie ride at Poole during his last season in the UK and he was superlative. Never saw Peter Craven ride but I do know that his track record at Cowley (63 secs) stood for over a decade and was only lowered when the track was shortened! Another rider I wished I could have seen was Igor Plechanov who had, if I recall, two outstanding World Final performances against his name.

I did see Plechanov ride  once at Swindon when he rode for Russia cant remember it though.I did notice Steve that Jerzy S rode the once at Oxford!!!! also he rode at Belle Vue and Halifax in 1971 i think was he deserved winner in 73 Steve what is your take.? Also Steve did you see Jim Airey ride in the 1973 series.??

Edited May 20, 2019 by Sidney the robin

[OveFundinFan 4,137]

27 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I saw Ronnie ride at Poole during his last season in the UK and he was superlative. Never saw Peter Craven ride but I do know that his track record at Cowley (63 secs) stood for over a decade and was only lowered when the track was shortened! Another rider I wished I could have seen was Igor Plechanov who had, if I recall, two outstanding World Final performances against his name.

Peter craven held the track record at Hyde Road for ages, 69 and 4 /5’s seconds (yep that how they expressed it in those days), he died in 1963, can’t remember when he set the time, but it held well into the mid 1970’s. I never thought it was going to get beat, but when the 4 valvers came along in 76ish it was lowered a few times.

i got to see Plechanov, Samorodov, Kurilenko,  and all the rest of USSR team at Hyde Road as well as the years Igor and Boris did well at Wembley. Very exciting seeing them on their ESO’s with handlebars clipped to the fork legs. And the 

The Poles came and did tours as well, all the oldies like Pawel Waloszek, Anotoni Woryna, then into the Plech, Jancarz years, all the weird names like Pogoselski, Glucklich.

Amazing times, amazing memories.

Edited May 20, 2019 by OveFundinFan

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

1 hour ago, OveFundinFan said:

Peter craven held the track record at Hyde Road for ages, 69 and 4 /5’s seconds (yep that how they expressed it in those days), he died in 1963, can’t remember when he set the time, but it held well into the mid 1970’s. I never thought it was going to get beat, but when the 4 valvers came along in 76ish it was lowered a few times.

i got to see Plechanov, Samorodov, Kurilenko,  and all the rest of USSR team at Hyde Road as well as the years Igor and Boris did well at Wembley. Very exciting seeing them on their ESO’s with handlebars clipped to the fork legs. And the 

The Poles came and did tours as well, all the oldies like Pawel Waloszek, Anotoni Woryna, then into the Plech, Jancarz years, all the weird names like Pogoselski, Glucklich.

Amazing times, amazing memories.

I loved watching the Russians and the Poles the thing that always stayed with me was  looking in the pits and the Russians looking like they all had bikes that were track spares .They  were always great value though great days indeed.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Sidney the robin

[Grand Central 2,654]

1 hour ago, OveFundinFan said:

Peter craven held the track record at Hyde Road for ages, 69 and 4 /5’s seconds (yep that how they expressed it in those days), he died in 1963, can’t remember when he set the time, but it held well into the mid 1970’s. I never thought it was going to get beat, but when the 4 valvers came along in 76ish it was lowered a few times.

Craven set that time in 1958

And Ivan equalled it in August 1970 and shaved a fifth off it in October that year.

That stood until 1975 when Peter Collins took it down to 69.4.

But in July 1976 PC smashed it ... 67 dead on the four valve and that time was not lowered at all throughout the seventies through to 1983.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Grand Central

[steve roberts 9,242]

12 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

I did see Plechanov ride  once at Swindon when he rode for Russia cant remember it though.I did notice Steve that Jerzy S rode the once at Oxford!!!! also he rode at Belle Vue and Halifax in 1971 i think was he deserved winner in 73 Steve what is your take.? Also Steve did you see Jim Airey ride in the 1973 series.??

That's right, Sid, in 1973 when he didn't get any further than the first bend and on falling remained trapped under the kickboard!

[cityrebel 2,960]

I was fortunate to have seen Ronnie ride on a weekly basis at Plough Lane, plus a few Dons aways from 1969 -72. He was a supreme stylist and a brilliant team rider. He is without a doubt, one of my favourite riders of all time.