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mickthemuppet

Who will be the next Prime Minister of the United Kingdom

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2 minutes ago, Vince said:

I think it's pretty easy to say that people should do this or that to better themselves but for some it is really difficult. For those of us earning a decent wage it is too easy to think it's available to everybody but in some cases it just isn't. Successive governments insistence that academia is everything has ruined the prospects of so many in this country as has the idea that everybody can do any job they want. Roads still have to be swept, bins emptied offices cleaned and boxes moved and the people doing that should be paid a living wage and have regular, full time hours. The increased use of agency workers to fill what should be full time roles has to come to an end as does the idea that they are self employed.

If somebody with a young family who left school without much in the way of qualifications then went into a minimum wage job or even worse a part time one it is a hole that's not so easy to climb out of. There are still all their bills to be paid so it's quite likely they will be grabbing every bot of overtime available, they may work irregular hours or shifts. By the time they can afford the time and/or money to re-educate themselves they are too old.

How then do they go to night school? There are many online qualifications that can be had for nothing or next to it but while they are OK for people updating their current skills they won't put somebody into a job from scratch in the main. OU is too expensive for somebody in that position. They may have left school without much in the way of qualifications because they find learning difficult, sweeping the factory floor or running around collecting other peoples rubbish should pay a living wage via regular, full time work but very often it doesn't these days.

Then there are the unemployed who daren't take work unless it is guaranteed to be ongoing because the benefits system is so poor at doing it's job that a days work could result in weeks of debt while they resolve the payment. If anything shows up the problem with the way government departments are run it is the benefits agency. They waste millions on schemes when they could better use the money to train people for the jobs that are actually available.

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What you're saying Vince is that people who earn good money are somehow special. I don't agree with that. I don't think I'm special or done anything which is beyond the vast majority of the population.

Most people work for 40-odd years of their lives. Therefore my view is why not earn as much as you can in that time? I find it baffling that many people are happy to work in low paid jobs. You seem to be very keen to make excuses for why people can't better themselves. I think the scenarios you describe area real, but only apply to a tiny fraction of our society. Certainly not the majority, as current earning levels seem to suggest.

As for low skilled jobs like sweeping floors or emptying bins, those jobs only exist because there are people who have no other skills to do anything else. Wouldn't it be perfect to have a shortage of cleaners, rather than a shortage of highly skilled, technical resources. That will never happen though, people too many people have the mindset you describe.

In terms of the benefits system, I'll admit that I do not know enough about its inner workings to have any meaningful insight, but the current record low unemployment rates seems to suggest it isn't acting as much of a drag on people getting jobs, albeit very low paid ones.

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One of the problems with Swindon is that it is not a university town.

Seven of the youngsters in our family went to uni and none came back to work here.

It’s one thing for businesses to base themselves in Swindon because it’s the cheapest town in the M4 corridor, but if they want a calibre of workers above “customer services” there’s every chance they’ll have to relocate from somewhere else.

I’m surprised that Nationwide hasn’t sponsored a computer course at Bath, Bristol or Reading university, but then again Nationwide’s recruitment/redundancy policy does go in and out with the tide and attracts only contractors.

 

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1 hour ago, MattK said:

As for young people starting out, house prices are ridiculous. However, the employment situation has never been better with plenty of jobs across all industries. Again, if you have the appropriate skills you will have no problem getting a well paid jobs, but I think too many people want a great job and good pay handed to them on a plate.

 

Why do people keep saying house prices are ridiculous?  They are not.

In Swindon a young person on £20k with a £5k deposit could quite easily buy a £90k studio flat. And your Nationwide workers on £40k could buy a three bed house for £200k.

Mortgage rates are at an all time low, with five year fixed rates as low as 2%. That’s only £300 a month on a £180k mortgage, compared to £800 a month minimum rent for a three bed house.

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1 minute ago, DC2 said:

 

Why do people keep saying house prices are ridiculous?  They are not.

In Swindon a young person on £20k with a £5k deposit could quite easily buy a £90k studio flat. And your Nationwide workers on £40k could buy a three bed house for £200k.

Mortgage rates are at an all time low, with five year fixed rates as low as 2%. That’s only £300 a month on a £180k mortgage, compared to £800 a month minimum rent for a three bed house.

I look at the first house I bought when I came to Swindon. It was £105,000 which was 4 times by salary. The same house is now about £180,000, which would require a salary of £45k on a 4x multiplier.

I agree, affordability is much better today and there are cheaper houses in Swindon, but you are getting far less for your money than I did 18 years ago.

 

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8 minutes ago, MattK said:

I look at the first house I bought when I came to Swindon. It was £105,000 which was 4 times by salary. The same house is now about £180,000, which would require a salary of £45k on a 4x multiplier.

I agree, affordability is much better today and there are cheaper houses in Swindon, but you are getting far less for your money than I did 18 years ago.

 

My first house was a two bed terraced in 1987 for £37k while I earned £15k and mortgage interest was 12%.

Thirty-two years later it’s now worth £180k, a starter in my profession should earn £40k and interest rates are 2%, making it easily affordable.

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9 minutes ago, MattK said:

I look at the first house I bought when I came to Swindon. It was £105,000 which was 4 times by salary. The same house is now about £180,000, which would require a salary of £45k on a 4x multiplier.

I agree, affordability is much better today and there are cheaper houses in Swindon, but you are getting far less for your money than I did 18 years ago.

 

Its the same here in West Yorkshire, one of the cheapest areas for property in the country.

House prices have approximately doubled in proportion to pay. 

My house cost double my annual earnings when I bought it. If I were on the same pay grade today, it would be more like 4 times.

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2 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

Its the same here in West Yorkshire, one of the cheapest areas for property in the country.

House prices have approximately doubled in proportion to pay. 

My house cost double my annual earnings when I bought it. If I were on the same pay grade today, it would be more like 4 times.

 

You can buy a house in Halifax for £50k!

 

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6 minutes ago, DC2 said:

 

You can buy a house in Halifax for £50k!

 

Usually around the £80k mark. 

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12 hours ago, MattK said:

I genuinely believe there are more opportunities today than ever before. Of course, you have to keep your skills and experience up to date if you want to earn decent money, but when has that not been the case?

In terms of "dog eat dog", I can only speak from my own experience, but the last role I recruited for had six applicants and only two of those were from the UK. This was a role paying upwards of 40k and with all the benefits of working for a large company. Certainly not the minimum wage zero hours jobs you describe.

As I've said before, Nationwide have no end of problems recruiting skilled resources in Swindon, so much so that we eventually resorted to sponsoring workers over from India, which I can assure you is not an quick or cheap option.

6 applicant on 2 from the Uk . so who got the job . one of the 2 or one of the other 4 . I want the truth as well not what you think I want to hear

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7 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

Usually around the £80k mark. 

A prem league footballer would have earned enough money to buy one of those by half time :D

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1 hour ago, MattK said:

What you're saying Vince is that people who earn good money are somehow special. I don't agree with that. I don't think I'm special or done anything which is beyond the vast majority of the population.

Most people work for 40-odd years of their lives. Therefore my view is why not earn as much as you can in that time? I find it baffling that many people are happy to work in low paid jobs. You seem to be very keen to make excuses for why people can't better themselves. I think the scenarios you describe area real, but only apply to a tiny fraction of our society. Certainly not the majority, as current earning levels seem to suggest.

As for low skilled jobs like sweeping floors or emptying bins, those jobs only exist because there are people who have no other skills to do anything else. Wouldn't it be perfect to have a shortage of cleaners, rather than a shortage of highly skilled, technical resources. That will never happen though, people too many people have the mindset you describe.

In terms of the benefits system, I'll admit that I do not know enough about its inner workings to have any meaningful insight, but the current record low unemployment rates seems to suggest it isn't acting as much of a drag on people getting jobs, albeit very low paid ones.

I don't think special more like fortunate in one way or another to have the opportunity. I'm certainly not special, I have no formal qualifications at all beyond a City and Guilds that I haven't used for work in the past 35 years. Even my apprenticeship was a stroke of fortune as I got it after 'leaving' school at 14 with no qualifications but two years later having the right person to speak up for me. Since then I have spent the majority of my life earning a decent wage and having a reasonable standard of living. It could so easily have been very different though and I see other people all the time who could be in my position financially but were unable to get there for one reason or another.

Sweeping floors, emptying bins and so on deserve a lot more respect than to think they only exist because there are people to do them. Those jobs are way more important to society than a lot of so called professions. Those jobs actually need doing for society to live in a decent way, difficult to see how they aren't more important than say a games developer or a car salesman or dozens of other jobs.

Of course it would be good to have far more highly skilled, technical people. However the question has to be asked why there is a shortage, we have a far more academically educated population than ever before so those jobs should have enough people in a position to learn to do them. The fault lies squarely at the foot of the companies who use those personnel but fail to train the next generation, preferring to recruit trained personnel from anywhere else. Nothing to do with the mindset of those who are perhaps academically challenged, come from a poor or otherwise deprived background or who plain lack the funding and or confidence to be able to step away from what they are doing to survive day to day. For many it's not a mindset it's the reality of trying to get by.

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2 hours ago, MattK said:

I agree that there are more crap jobs than well paid jobs. Why is that? The answer is because most people don't have any skills. There's no point in creating lots of highly skilled, well paid jobs if there is no one to fill them. That's my point. There is no shortage of well paid jobs for people who have the skills. £40k a year is easily achievable in Swindon if you have skills which are relevant and in demand. However, in my experience of trying to recruit into those kinds of jobs, the people are simply not out there, which is why companies have to resort to bringing in workers from overseas.

I don't think the country is in good shape. The country is a mess. You need to earn £45k a year to make a net contribution in Income Tax. Only 15% of people earn this much, which means that 85% of working people take out far more than they pay in. People wonder why public services are underfunded, this is the real answer.

Being in or out of the EU will not change the above. The only thing that will is if people get off their asses and get some skills. It is easier than ever to do this with more access to online content via MOOCs like Coursera and edX. However, I wonder how many of the people in low paid jobs have attempted to improve themselves by studying Introduction to Computer Science from Harvard University, which you can do online for free and in your own time? No, they'd rather complain about low pay, while having their wages topped up with in-work benefits and spending their evenings and weekends watching X Factor and Britain's Got Talent.

As for young people starting out, house prices are ridiculous. However, the employment situation has never been better with plenty of jobs across all industries. Again, if you have the appropriate skills you will have no problem getting a well paid jobs, but I think too many people want a great job and good pay handed to them on a plate.

My son who worked in accountacy  in Canary Wharf once said there were 100 applicants with the same qualifications going for 1 job??

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47 minutes ago, adonis said:

6 applicant on 2 from the Uk . so who got the job . one of the 2 or one of the other 4 . I want the truth as well not what you think I want to hear

As I said, we sponsored someone from India to fill the role. One of the UK candidates didn't have any experience in the technology we used, although I did refer him to a colleague in another team and the other received an offer elsewhere while we were still going through our process.

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1 hour ago, Vince said:

I don't think special more like fortunate in one way or another to have the opportunity. I'm certainly not special, I have no formal qualifications at all beyond a City and Guilds that I haven't used for work in the past 35 years. Even my apprenticeship was a stroke of fortune as I got it after 'leaving' school at 14 with no qualifications but two years later having the right person to speak up for me. Since then I have spent the majority of my life earning a decent wage and having a reasonable standard of living. It could so easily have been very different though and I see other people all the time who could be in my position financially but were unable to get there for one reason or another.

You make it sound as if this chance you were offered was a one off and without no other opportunities would have presented themselves. I don't think you really believe that, do you?

 

1 hour ago, Vince said:

Sweeping floors, emptying bins and so on deserve a lot more respect than to think they only exist because there are people to do them. Those jobs are way more important to society than a lot of so called professions. Those jobs actually need doing for society to live in a decent way, difficult to see how they aren't more important than say a games developer or a car salesman or dozens of other jobs.

The vast majority of low skilled jobs could be automated or offshored if we didn't have a vast pool of unskilled labour who are prepared to do them for close to minimum wage. Far from being important to society, these low paid jobs are highly detrimental, as the people working in them expect the same level of services, healthcare, education, pensions etc. but are not paying in anywhere near what these services cost to provide.

 

1 hour ago, Vince said:

Of course it would be good to have far more highly skilled, technical people. However the question has to be asked why there is a shortage, we have a far more academically educated population than ever before so those jobs should have enough people in a position to learn to do them. The fault lies squarely at the foot of the companies who use those personnel but fail to train the next generation, preferring to recruit trained personnel from anywhere else. Nothing to do with the mindset of those who are perhaps academically challenged, come from a poor or otherwise deprived background or who plain lack the funding and or confidence to be able to step away from what they are doing to survive day to day. For many it's not a mindset it's the reality of trying to get by.

The reason there are shortages is because university courses are driven by demand from students and not need from industry. The outcome is far more media and arts graduates than there are jobs and far fewer STEM graduates than required. As I said previously, the solution to this is Government and industry working together to define career pathways which people can follow, rather than simply picking something they want to work in regardless of jobs available.

I do not recognise your claim of companies not training the next generation. Every large company I have worked for has had a myriad of development programmes for school leavers, graduates and career changers. Of course, this is a long term process and demand for immediate skilled resources is often filled from overseas.

Why is being poor, from a deprived background or lacking in confidence an excuse? This is 100% a problem with mindset.

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