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Tai / Rosco - Team GB 2020

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19 minutes ago, norbold said:

I'm not sure that's quite true, Steve. The three you mention are still sort of within living memory. I've seen all three for example. Where would you place Vic Huxley, Tom Farndon, Bluey Wilkinson, Vic Duggan, Jack Parker, Jack Young.....for example?

Only a matter of opinion of course. Oh, and what about Savalas Clouting?

That's why I said "most". You and I are a little more accepting,  and of course, all of those you mention I do rate among the all-time greats. Along with Cordy Milne....

Unfortunately, people get too bogged down in two things :

1) "I didn't see him, so I can't include him!"

2) "It was a lot better in my day!"

Um, that's why we have records and results so we CAN make comparisons.

Clouting was good, but I think Richard Pettman was better. Well, his hair was, anyway!

Steve

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9 hours ago, chunky said:

That's why I said "most". You and I are a little more accepting,  and of course, all of those you mention I do rate among the all-time greats. Along with Cordy Milne....

Unfortunately, people get too bogged down in two things :

1) "I didn't see him, so I can't include him!"

2) "It was a lot better in my day!"

Um, that's why we have records and results so we CAN make comparisons.

Clouting was good, but I think Richard Pettman was better. Well, his hair was, anyway!

Steve

We had to delay the start of the annual Hackney speedway Thames riverboat cruise one year, because Richard Pettman was late. Probably sorting his hair out!

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On 8/11/2019 at 9:15 PM, Midland Red said:

I don’t need a clue, and I’m certainly not “getting all worked up” - sometimes you are unreal with your comments!

In fact I am totally comfortable with my opinion, having followed this sport since 1964, that Lee was a better rider than Woffinden

Not more successful in terms of achievement, I grant you - I have no problem with that - nor with the question of their respective behaviour 

Regarding behaviour, as others have referenced, you are very quick to label forum members and their opinions as unintelligent, foolish, and many other adjectives, in an apparent attempt to belittle them

Not sure how high your horse is, but it seems to tower over the majority of reasonable forum members

We are all entitled to an opinion, yourself included - they don’t need justification, because that it what they are, opinions, and they don’t call for your personal crusade to belittle or insult those with which your opinion differs

Perhaps now, you will “get it”!

PS I think it was you (apologies if it wasn’t) who mentioned bias - I said there’s no bias involved in Lee v Woffinden; the only rider I have ever been biased against was, and still is, Ole Olsen, and I’ve consistently admitted that!

 

So another long post with absolutely nothing to back up this 'opinion'.

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On 8/11/2019 at 9:29 PM, Mark said:

can't see how anyone can compare riders from different era's who used different bikes and competed in a different style GP series.    its all personal so no one is right no one wrong.   its what you like best.

Exactly! Which is why saying I saw them both ride is utterly worthless.

We can only compare on achievements in their respective eras and in that Lee doesn't have a leg to stand on.

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Some people on here are laughable

To have an opinion you have to back that opinion up with reasoning.

My favourite rider ever was Mark Loram, right from the early days of being a mascot when my family helped to sponsor him right until his career ending crash

Is Mark Loram better to watch then Tai? In my opinion yes...........was Mark a better rider than Tai......no....more naturally talented...maybe

Those saying Lee was a 'better' rider than Tai isnt up for debate....he isnt

Was Lee better than Tai to watch? Maybe....Was he more naturally talented? I believe so

I think people get there judgement clouded by either being close to one rider or simply disliking the other

I couldnt and still cant stand Gary Havelock......but he was a deserving world champion in 1992...it was his year he dominated with only Per Jonsson getting close....you cant take that away

 

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6 hours ago, Gavan said:

Those saying Lee was a 'better' rider than Tai isnt up for debate....he isnt

Was Lee better than Tai to watch? Maybe....Was he more naturally talented? I believe so

I think people get there judgement clouded by either being close to one rider or simply disliking the other

I couldnt and still cant stand Gary Havelock......but he was a deserving world champion in 1992...it was his year he dominated with only Per Jonsson getting close....you cant take that away

 

It is crazy. Most of us who reckon Tai is better are happy to concede that Lee was more talented. Those who reckon Lee was better will concede nothing, because they "know".

I stated that Lee was perhaps the most talented rider in speedway history, yet I was accused of considering him an "also-ran"! See the difference in the two camps?

It's true that people can't (or won't) differentiate between BEST and FAVOURITE, or simply want to rewrite the dictionary...

Steve

Edited by chunky
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5 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Exactly! Which is why saying I saw them both ride is utterly worthless.

We can only compare on achievements in their respective eras and in that Lee doesn't have a leg to stand on.

 

You can compare them on bike handling skills too and ability to gate and to overtake and to ride different tracks. Achievements is not the only criterion for comparison.

For me, Darcy Ward is the most naturally gifted rider I have seen but his achievements don’t amount to much.

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21 minutes ago, chunky said:

It is crazy. Most of us who reckon Tai is better are happy to concede that Lee was more talented. Those who reckon Lee was better will concede nothing, because they "know".

That’s misleading at the very least.  I reckon / My opinion is that Lee was a better rider than Woffinden, but I concede that Woffinden has been far more successful.  Not sure where the “know” comes from.

As I said, I’m comfortable with my opinion - and that’s all it is, an opinion.  I have no axe to grind with Woffinden, and have no reason to favour a Kings Lynn rider (Lee). 

Pick any two riders, and anyone can have an opinion as to which one was the better rider - but the choices will not all be the same!  Because that’s what opinions are about.  

Comparing achievements, records, etc - those are facts, and in the main indisputable.

Having seen Woffinden on the mike last night for the first time (I’ve missed his other recent appearances), I will say how impressed I was. Clearly an area in which he is better than Lee, in my opinion.

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SURPRISED Peter Collins hasn't figured more prominently in this conversation... supreme natural talent, fabulous to watch, passed other top riders for fun. Like many others, the GP system would have suited him. How he would have loved the Wroclaw track of two weeks ago.

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I could sort of understand the questioning of Tai Woffinden if he was just a gate and go rider. Thing is though, he is a rare rider who has the full toolkit as his disposal...and proves it time and time again. Yes, he can gate. But is brilliant from the back, is uber fast, highly professional, able to consistently perform under the highest pressure and has longevity. And you can't say that for many riders in the sport's history...not even several world champions.

What more do you want from a World Champion?

I think it boils down to change. People don't like it. So when a rider comes along who challenges their cast-in-stone views over speedway gods of the past, some people find it difficult to accept. Doubly so when he's young, tattooed, opinionated and talks with a funny accent.

 

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49 minutes ago, Midland Red said:

That’s misleading at the very least.  I reckon / My opinion is that Lee was a better rider than Woffinden, but I concede that Woffinden has been far more successful.  Not sure where the “know” comes from.

As much as I hate to, sometimes we have to generalise.

As I have said before, Lee could - and SHOULD - have done more with his career, in which case he could be considered the best-ever Brit - even now. It's scary to think how young he still was when his career at the very top level finished. Even worse, he could have already had a couple more World Titles by that time. Fact is, he didn't...

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24 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

SURPRISED Peter Collins hasn't figured more prominently in this conversation... supreme natural talent, fabulous to watch, passed other top riders for fun. Like many others, the GP system would have suited him. How he would have loved the Wroclaw track of two weeks ago.

We've actually covered comparisons with PC in more depth on other threads; this one just seemed to devolve into Lee vs Woffinden...

Funny thing, when we look back to the '70's and early '80's, we've discussed previously how there were just a small handful of riders (PC, Mauger, Olsen etc) way ahead of the rest. With a GP system, that would just have increased the gulf between the elite and the rest.

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25 minutes ago, falcace said:

What more do you want from a World Champion?

Dangerous question to ask on the BSF!!! :nono:

I think some of the people here have a list of answers on the fridge... :rofl:

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1 hour ago, chunky said:

It is crazy. Most of us who reckon Tai is better are happy to concede that Lee was more talented. Those who reckon Lee was better will concede nothing, because they "know".

I stated that Lee was perhaps the most talented rider in speedway history, yet I was accused of considering him in "also-ran"! See the difference in the two camps?

It's true that people can't (or won't) differentiate between BEST and FAVOURITE, or simply want to rewrite the dictionary...

Steve

Absolutely spot on 100%

1 hour ago, DC2 said:

 

You can compare them on bike handling skills too and ability to gate and to overtake and to ride different tracks. Achievements is not the only criterion for comparison.

For me, Darcy Ward is the most naturally gifted rider I have seen but his achievements don’t amount to much.

You can look at three criteria and i will give you 3 answers..... but if you are discussing best rider ....its Tai if we talking about British only

Favourite to watch...........Mark Loram

Most naturally talented...........Loram, Ward, K.Moran, Screen, Gollob, Lee, Collins , Carter

Best Ever..........Rickardsson, Nielsen, Mauger, Woffinden

 

 

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57 minutes ago, chunky said:

As much as I hate to, sometimes we have to generalise.

As I have said before, Lee could - and SHOULD - have done more with his career, in which case he could be considered the best-ever Brit - even now. It's scary to think how young he still was when his career at the very top level finished. Even worse, he could have already had a couple more World Titles by that time. Fact is, he didn't...

Can’t disagree with the fact that he should have achieved more than he did

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