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British world champions ratings list

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2 hours ago, chunky said:

Commitment to England, age, tattoos, charity work, literacy, vegetarianism, mid-season retirement, sexual orientation, or whatever... NONE of those factors have any relevance when determining the ability and achievements of a speedway rider.

When you rate Peter Collins you have to like many others have done take into consideration what he won for England is that not true.?? Tai comes knowhere near in that respect a  great rider no doubt but any better no.

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Tbh tho Sid would you not agree Tai hasn't had the back up PC had in an England team

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29 minutes ago, bruno said:

Tbh tho Sid would you not agree Tai hasn't had the back up PC had in an England team

Of course bruno great point but do  you think he is as passionate about riding for his Country as Peter was.?

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1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

Of course bruno great point but do  you think he is as passionate about riding for his Country as Peter was.?

Do you think PC would have been passionate riding for GB managed by Alun Rossiter with no world class riders in support? Do you think Tai Woffinden would not have been winning titles and test matches with England if he were surrounded by world class riders and those competitions had the same prestige as years previous?

You are comparing apples with pears. And you are also looking back with seriously rose-tinted specs.

Edited by falcace

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11 hours ago, BL65 said:

The British World Champions have shown differing degrees of dominance in their title winning seasons.  Looking back at the records of some of the champions from overseas, riders such as Young, Moore, Fundin, Briggs, Mauger and Michanek rarely seemed to be beaten in any meeting when they were at their peak.  The figures from official meetings, (league and cup, including bonus points), individual meetings and world championship meetings, excluding best pairs and challenge matches, show the following for the British champions from 1949 to 1962:

1949 Tommy Price - from 250 rides, possible points 750, points scored 557, success rate 74.5%
1950 Freddie Williams - 203 rides, 609 possible points, points scored 432, success rate 70.9%
1953 Freddie Williams - 221 rides, 663 possible points, points scored 506, success rate 76.3%
1955 Peter Craven - 177 rides, 531 possible points, points scored 409, success rate 77.0%
1962 Peter Craven - 178 rides, 534 possible points, points scored 448, success rate 83.9%

Peter Craven rode off a handicap in team matches in 1962.

 

Details for Peter Collins from 1976: 348 rides, possible points 1044, points scored 926, success rate 88.7%

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1 hour ago, falcace said:

Do you think PC would have been passionate riding for GB managed by Alun Rossiter with no world class riders in support? Do you think Tai Woffinden would not have been winning titles and test matches with England if he were surrounded by world class riders and those competitions had the same prestige as years previous?

You are comparing apples with pears. And you are also looking back with seriously rose-tinted specs.

I actually enjoy watching modern day racing so your  point about rose tinted glasses is totally wrong.I actually preferred racing in yesteryear but that is my prerogative and my right as you have the right to your opinion.As for Rossiter do you know him???? for me he was treated shabbily and it did not end nicely.What Tai did to him Rossiter on tv was a disgrace a gutless act why not speak to him personally privately keeping it in house.?

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46 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I actually enjoy watching modern day racing so your  point about rose tinted glasses is totally wrong.

The rose tinted I refer to is less about the racing and more about the people.

If you think PC was riding simply for the love of speedway, Belle Vue and England, you are being very naive. He knew his worth and if it didn't work for him, he didn't do it. He was single minded-just like the very best riders often are. It's documented that he notified John Berry he wasn't willing to ride for England in WTC and Test matches in 1985, but would only be available to defend the pairs with Mort. And on the occasions when wasn't getting the deal he wanted with Belle Vue, he entered talks with King's Lynn and Leicester to leverage more money from the Aces. Where he riding today, you think he would be putting Belle Vue and England above lucrative continental contracts in Poland and Sweden? Nonsense.

Now, I don't have any issue with any of the above. As I have already said, it's a short and dangerous career. Good luck to him. But I cannot pretend that the riders of yesteryear had some stronger moral fibre than today's riders. They did what was best for them, just like today's riders.

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1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

As for Rossiter do you know him???? for me he was treated shabbily and it did not end nicely.What Tai did to him Rossiter on tv was a disgrace a gutless act why not speak to him personally privately keeping it in house.?

No.I do have a private story..which doesn't shine him in a good light. Not for here though.

But whether I know him or not is irrelevant. 1) He clearly has lost the respect of our top riders 2) He presents a poor figurehead beyond our sport, so why keep him?

I actually think he was allowed to move on with some dignity and was allowed to jump before he was pushed. You have to think about him in the wider context of national coaches and managers. Gareth Southgate, Eddie Jones, Dave Brailsford, Tracey Neville...not only are they highly respected by their teams, they are all highly articulate, intelligent, professional and presentable people. Good figureheads for their sports. Can you imagine Alun Rossiter being wheeled out in front of a blue chip company CEO as the face of speedway trying to secure some major backing? The mere thought of it is cringeworthy.

Edited by falcace
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5 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

When you rate Peter Collins you have to like many others have done take into consideration what he won for England is that not true.?? Tai comes knowhere near in that respect a  great rider no doubt but any better no.

PC did not "win for England". Whatever England won as a team, was won by the WHOLE team. As has been said, he was just one of a number of world-class English riders at the time. Tai does not have that, and that is not his fault, but people still use that against him in an attempt to prove that he is not as good as PC.

Again, I'm sure that you are using the three World Team Cup holds (and maximums) to show how good he was, aren't you?

Again, England had more world-class riders at their disposal then than any other nation. THAT is why they won, not because of Peter Collins.

Again, the only true top-liner he faced in those finals was Michanek. The other top riders of the era either didn't qualify for the final (Mauger, Olsen etc), or were on Collins' team!

PC won twelve races in WTC finals against largely mediocre opposition. Woffinden won twelve races in the SoN final - against the World's top riders! And faced them twice!

Your above response to falcace was irrelevant; nobody was talking about whether you "preferred" racing back in the day. Facts are facts, and the two most obvious facts are :

1) Tai's world championship record is far superior to that of any other British rider in history.

2) With Tai being the only true world-class rider available, it has been impossible for GB (as a team) to achieve the success of previous eras (a la 1970's Denmark, and I don't recall anyone saying Olsen wasn't that good, simply because Denmark weren't good enough to win anything as a team).

The fact that you use the quality and success of other riders to bolster your views of PC is ridiculous, and the fact that you play down Woffinden's achievements simply because there have been no other quality British riders in recent years is doubly ridiculous.

Edited by chunky

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4 hours ago, chunky said:

PC did not "win for England". Whatever England won as a team, was won by the WHOLE team. As has been said, he was just one of a number of world-class English riders at the time. Tai does not have that, and that is not his fault, but people still use that against him in an attempt to prove that he is not as good as PC.

Again, I'm sure that you are using the three World Team Cup holds (and maximums) to show how good he was, aren't you?

Again, England had more world-class riders at their disposal then than any other nation. THAT is why they won, not because of Peter Collins.

Again, the only true top-liner he faced in those finals was Michanek. The other top riders of the era either didn't qualify for the final (Mauger, Olsen etc), or were on Collins' team!

PC won twelve races in WTC finals against largely mediocre opposition. Woffinden won twelve races in the SoN final - against the World's top riders! And faced them twice!

Your above response to falcace was irrelevant; nobody was talking about whether you "preferred" racing back in the day. Facts are facts, and the two most obvious facts are :

1) Tai's world championship record is far superior to that of any other British rider in history.

2) With Tai being the only true world-class rider available, it has been impossible for GB (as a team) to achieve the success of previous eras (a la 1970's Denmark, and I don't recall anyone saying Olsen wasn't that good, simply because Denmark weren't good enough to win anything as a team).

The fact that you use the quality and success of other riders to bolster your views of PC is ridiculous, and the fact that you play down Woffinden's achievements simply because there have been no other quality British riders in recent years is doubly ridiculous.

Don't have a hernia Chunky chill !!!!!!!!'   you have had an agenda against me for a while.I did try to call a truce with you about a month ago  but to no evail you feel you are above me you are not.Let's get thing's straight my opinion is as valid as your's no better no worse you need  to except another view is that to hard????? take a deep breath Chunky or is it Steve or Stan ???  take a long deep breath!!!!

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5 hours ago, falcace said:

The rose tinted I refer to is less about the racing and more about the people.

If you think PC was riding simply for the love of speedway, Belle Vue and England, you are being very naive. He knew his worth and if it didn't work for him, he didn't do it. He was single minded-just like the very best riders often are. It's documented that he notified John Berry he wasn't willing to ride for England in WTC and Test matches in 1985, but would only be available to defend the pairs with Mort. And on the occasions when wasn't getting the deal he wanted with Belle Vue, he entered talks with King's Lynn and Leicester to leverage more money from the Aces. Where he riding today, you think he would be putting Belle Vue and England above lucrative continental contracts in Poland and Sweden? Nonsense.

Now, I don't have any issue with any of the above. As I have already said, it's a short and dangerous career. Good luck to him. But I cannot pretend that the riders of yesteryear had some stronger moral fibre than today's riders. They did what was best for them, just like today's riders.

1985 was PC a little past his best Falcace ???  not a great example how many years and times had he put England first for little financial reward.? Woffinden  won't even ride in a British final yet commentates  and probably get's paid for doing so  did he think sod this a Danny King or Charlie Wright might come out of the woodwork and beat him.? 

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2 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

1985 was PC a little past his best Falcace ???  not a great example how many years and times had he put England first for little financial reward.? Woffinden  won't even ride in a British final yet commentates  and probably get's paid for doing so  did he think sod this a Danny King or Charlie Wright might come out of the woodwork and beat him.? 

Are you on the Banks bitter at Wolves!

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5 hours ago, falcace said:

No.I do have a private story..which doesn't shine him in a good light. Not for here though.

But whether I know him or not is irrelevant. 1) He clearly has lost the respect of our top riders 2) He presents a poor figurehead beyond our sport, so why keep him?

I actually think he was allowed to move on with some dignity and was allowed to jump before he was pushed. You have to think about him in the wider context of national coaches and managers. Gareth Southgate, Eddie Jones, Dave Brailsford, Tracey Neville...not only are they highly respected by their teams, they are all highly articulate, intelligent, professional and presentable people. Good figureheads for their sports. Can you imagine Alun Rossiter being wheeled out in front of a blue chip company CEO as the face of speedway trying to secure some major backing? The mere thought of it is cringeworthy.

So Woffinden who has hardly been Mr dedication to British speedway over the years decides he will mock Rossiter live on tv. That is big of him Woffinden should have a say but no more he feels his input knows best but he is not a messiah far from it.That interview showed me what he is about about himself it always has been.This new British set up has loads to do blame Rossiter blame British speedway but we are light years behind i except that .I like like the young guns coming through and hopefully a Palin, Gilkes, ( etc) comes through the system and move us forward.

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4 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

No a cup of tea of Charlie mate.!!!!!

Charlie, Coke at Wolves!! 

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