British world champions ratings list

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

2 minutes ago, chunky said:

As has been mentioned previously Steve, it is easy to attach too much significance to PC's record in the World Cup. Three gold medals, and three maximums, against vastly inferior opponents (Michanek was the only true world class rival in those finals) really shouldn't be unexpected.  Apart from Mich, the best riders in those events were his team-mates! Plus, the finals didn't feature Mauger or Olsen.

However, you are correct when it comes to the pairs finals.

Sidney - don't forget that Collins should also have won in 1975, but for those idiots who took it upon themselves to water the track. When you talk about Lee, there is no way you can say he "should" have won in 83. Muller was the best rider on the night, and it's not like he had a fall or Jessup-style e/f that ruined his chances.

Steve

The 75 final was a dust bowl and PC did suffer more than anyone on that night when it was watered.1983 Lee for me was by far the best rider in the world in the last three month's of the season he murdered Carter 4.0 in the helmet over two legs. He come second in the BLRC after getting a duck egg first time out beat the Professor in a run off for second.He won the Pride of the East slamming Hans again and clocking a mighty fast time in one race.Muller was good very good and he deserved his victory but that track was set up for him he had laps of practice and nine times out of ten would not of beaten Lee on any other track in Europe.

[chunky 6,086]

3 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

Fair point alhough he did achieve maximums in three different countries...Poland which was always regarded as a graveyard to British riders back then and the Poles were notoriously fast in their own back yard but were on the decline by then to be fair.

Thing is, if you are THAT good (which PC was), you should be able to ride ALL tracks!

That is why I would definitely put Collins and Lee ahead of Tommy Price, and even Freddie Williams.

You mentioned 1978 also, Steve, and I deliberately left that one out as PC wasn't actually in the final. It is a great point that he probably would have had three world titles, and quite possibly a fourth, but for idiots, injury, and sabotage. Lee could - and probably should - have had more, but his problems were all self-inflicted. That fact alone keeps him well below PC in the ratings.

[chunky 6,086]

7 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

The 75 final was a dust bowl and PC did suffer more than anyone on that night when it was watered.1983 Lee for me was by far the best rider in the world in the last three month's of the season he murdered Carter 4.0 in the helmet over two legs. He come second in the BLRC after getting a duck egg first time out beat the Professor in a run off for second.He won the Pride of the East slamming Hans again and clocking a mighty fast time in one race.Muller was good very good and he deserved his victory but that track was set up for him he had laps of practice and nine times out of ten would not of beaten Lee on any other track in Europe.

Taking things one by one...

1) Lee was better than Carter anyway.

2) He still got a duck egg in the BLRC.

3) The Pride of the East was on his home track.

4) Nielsen was nowhere near the level he was to achieve in later years.

When we say that somebody SHOULD have won the world final, it is because they made a made a mistake (Mauger 73), suffered an e/f (Jessup), were injured (Collins 77), or got screwed (Collins 75).

Being the best rider on current form is a lot different from being the best rider on the night...

[steve roberts 9,242]

1 hour ago, chunky said:

Thing is, if you are THAT good (which PC was), you should be able to ride ALL tracks!

That is why I would definitely put Collins and Lee ahead of Tommy Price, and even Freddie Williams.

You mentioned 1978 also, Steve, and I deliberately left that one out as PC wasn't actually in the final. It is a great point that he probably would have had three world titles, and quite possibly a fourth, but for idiots, injury, and sabotage. Lee could - and probably should - have had more, but his problems were all self-inflicted. That fact alone keeps him well below PC in the ratings.

I'd agree but the Eastern bloc tracks did present problems during the late sixties and early seventies and were somewhat of an unknown quantity and it took a while for western riders to adapt to not only track conditions but the mindset...although Ivan conquered that as he did most things thrown at him!

Riders nowadays, of course, ride regularly in foreign leagues and tracks and/or conditions abroad no longer present the problems that they once did.

Good debate!

Edited September 29, 2019 by steve roberts

[steve roberts 9,242]

43 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

The 75 final was a dust bowl and PC did suffer more than anyone on that night when it was watered.1983 Lee for me was by far the best rider in the world in the last three month's of the season he murdered Carter 4.0 in the helmet over two legs. He come second in the BLRC after getting a duck egg first time out beat the Professor in a run off for second.He won the Pride of the East slamming Hans again and clocking a mighty fast time in one race.Muller was good very good and he deserved his victory but that track was set up for him he had laps of practice and nine times out of ten would not of beaten Lee on any other track in Europe.

Of course I was forgetting that Lee won two consecutive British Finals when it was a meeting hard fought and won with so many great riders competing.

[Split 177]

10 hours ago, britmet said:

Freddie Williams had great successes in South Africa and Rhodesia in the '50s, - a time when all the World-class riders, Briggs, Moore, Craven, Crutcher, Nygren, Fundin, etc , spent the winter there - , including Golden Helmet MRC wins in both countries. He was undefeated SA GH champ in '53/'54, and had a 10.56 league average over his 2 league season there.
Details  HERE

From the forum's (self appointed) South African correspondent :

Ah, those were the days. 

[waiheke1 4,295]

1. Woffy 2. Craven 3. Collins 4. Lee 5. Williams 6. Price 7. Loram 8. Havelock

Tough choices between the two PCs for 2nd/3rd, and Loram/Havvy for 7th/8th, rest reasonably clear imho.

[chunky 6,086]

1 hour ago, waiheke1 said:

1. Woffy 2. Craven 3. Collins 4. Lee 5. Williams 6. Price 7. Loram 8. Havelock

Tough choices between the two PCs for 2nd/3rd, and Loram/Havvy for 7th/8th, rest reasonably clear imho.

Yeah, tough to choose between the last two. Havvy had the one year of dominance, but Loram was more consistent.

Edited September 30, 2019 by chunky

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

2 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

1. Woffy 2. Craven 3. Collins 4. Lee 5. Williams 6. Price 7. Loram 8. Havelock

Tough choices between the two PCs for 2nd/3rd, and Loram/Havvy for 7th/8th, rest reasonably clear imho.

1./ Craven, 2/ Lee,  3.  Collins. 4./ Woffinden 5./  Williams. 6/ Price. 7 / Loram. 8/ Havelock a really interesting debate.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

11 hours ago, chunky said:

Taking things one by one...

1) Lee was better than Carter anyway.

2) He still got a duck egg in the BLRC.

3) The Pride of the East was on his home track.

4) Nielsen was nowhere near the level he was to achieve in later years.

When we say that somebody SHOULD have won the world final, it is because they made a made a mistake (Mauger 73), suffered an e/f (Jessup), were injured (Collins 77), or got screwed (Collins 75).

Being the best rider on current form is a lot different from being the best rider on the night...

Carter 1981/83 was riding at a very high level and who knows if he had prevailed in 1982.!!!

[chunky 6,086]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

Carter 1981/83 was riding at a very high level and who knows if he had prevailed in 1982.!!!

And? We are just discussing the world champions here, and "ifs" don't really enter into it. As I said though, as good as Carter was, he was never at Lee's level.

Of course, the big similarities were that they both had bags of potential, and they both possessed the same self-destructive tendencies.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

1 hour ago, chunky said:

And? We are just discussing the world champions here, and "ifs" don't really enter into it. As I said though, as good as Carter was, he was never at Lee's level.

Of course, the big similarities were that they both had bags of potential, and they both possessed the same self-destructive tendencies.

I would say Chunky alot of Michael's problems were that he liked to turn up one hundred per cent happy with his aquipment this was not always the case hence the no shows at numerous meeting's.When looking back he still had a great career crammed alot into seven years 1976/83 most riders would of been proud of it world champion, placed twice and a fourth place as well in world finals also a world Longtrack champion.

[steve roberts 9,242]

4 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I would say Chunky alot of Michael's problems were that he liked to turn up one hundred per cent happy with his aquipment this was not always the case hence the no shows at numerous meeting's.When looking back he still had a great career crammed alot into seven years 1976/83 most riders would of been proud of it world champion, placed twice and a fourth place as well in world finals also a world Longtrack champion.

I saw him ride as a fifteen year old against Colin Richardson (also 15) at Cowley back in 1974 and Colin beat him, if I recall, twice. However as we know Michael went on to scale great heights whereas Richardson after showing great potential (including winning the National League Riders Championship) his career somewhat stagnated and he retired prematurely (1985?)

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

1 minute ago, steve roberts said:

I saw him ride as a fifteen year old against Colin Richardson (also 15) at Cowley back in 1974 and Colin beat him, if I recall, twice. However as we know Michael went on to scale great heights whereas Richardson after showing great potential (including winning the National League Riders Championship) his career somewhat stagnated and he retired prematurely (1985?)

Was it a  wasted talent in your opinion Steve? Mike/Andy as a team had some serious knowledge on the mechanical side.As a rider aged  16 he looked so composed and for a lightweight had a great balance Mike seems happy with his career so that has to be the most important thing.

[steve roberts 9,242]

13 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Was it a  wasted talent in your opinion Steve? Mike/Andy as a team had some serious knowledge on the mechanical side.As a rider aged  16 he looked so composed and for a lightweight had a great balance Mike seems happy with his career so that has to be the most important thing.

Like Kelly Moran he could have achieved so much more. He could easily have become a multi World Champion but having said that Michael won so much during a relatively short career and not many can say that!