British world champions ratings list

[norbold 7,101]

I think mine would be the same as yours, Rob, except I would have nos. 6&7 the other way round.

[chunky 6,086]

2 hours ago, norbold said:

except I would have nos. 6&7 the other way round.

Have to agree with that, and probably put Williams ahead of Price, seeing as he won twice as many titles as his team-mate.

[iris123 20,938]

A case could be made that he did win the 1946 British Riders Championship. Did qualify for a World Final before the war and was one of those that lost some of his peak years due to the war

[norbold 7,101]

On 10/3/2019 at 1:54 PM, norbold said:

Yes, he is definitely wrong about Craven starting off a handicap, but I think that citing contemporary issues of Speedway Star regarding Craven's transfer request shows it did happen. My own copies are in storage at the moment, but hopefully I can get down to look at them tomorrow. I'll keep you posted!

Ok, found them!

The Speedway Star for 13 April, in an article by Frank MacLean, says almost word for word what Brian Burford says in his book, under the headline,  'Craven asks for move'.
The 20 April follow-up, also by Frank MacLean, is headlined, 'Belle Vue said "No" to Craven. This article says:
'Belle Vue gave a very definite "No!" to Peter Craven's request for a transfer recently. In fact, the Manchester track management simply refused to hear anything more about the World Champion going to another track..."
'But the rider in question has other ideas, He told me as much before leaving his Liverpool home to board the plane for Vienna...So the matter, it now appears will need to go to a Board of Arbitration for settlement.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  'Several tracks, and I understand Norwich is one of them, are more than just interested in getting Craven but at this stage when even the question of transfer fees cannot be considered it is impossible to say just where the World Champion would move.....'

[chunky 6,086]

59 minutes ago, iris123 said:

A case could be made that he did win the 1946 British Riders Championship. Did qualify for a World Final before the war and was one of those that lost some of his peak years due to the war

Fair point. Again, I have no issue when people use reason and facts to substantiate their views...

[norbold 7,101]

2 hours ago, iris123 said:

A case could be made that he did win the 1946 British Riders Championship. Did qualify for a World Final before the war and was one of those that lost some of his peak years due to the war

It is also the case that Tommy Price was at the top longer than Freddie Williams. As iris says he qualified for the 1939 World Final and it was only the period between 1951 and 1954 that Fred Williams topped Tommy Price in the League averages. Even in 1950, when Williams won the World Final, he only came 13th in the League averages with an average of 8.75 to Price's 9.83 and 3rd place. In 1955 and 1956, Price again outscored Williams in the League. It is true that in that 1950-1953 period, Williams had a far superior World Final record, but he really only had five years at the top while Price was at the top in 1939 and then from 1946 - 1956, and again, as iris point out, missed out what would probably have been his very best years..

Which brings us back to the question of do we count the best as the rider who was at the top the longest or the rider who had a shorter period at the top but was probably better in that short period? Which is part of the problem when comparing Lee with Craven or Collins for example.

[lucifer sam 3,953]

3 hours ago, norbold said:

It is also the case that Tommy Price was at the top longer than Freddie Williams. As iris says he qualified for the 1939 World Final and it was only the period between 1951 and 1954 that Fred Williams topped Tommy Price in the League averages. Even in 1950, when Williams won the World Final, he only came 13th in the League averages with an average of 8.75 to Price's 9.83 and 3rd place. In 1955 and 1956, Price again outscored Williams in the League. It is true that in that 1950-1953 period, Williams had a far superior World Final record, but he really only had five years at the top while Price was at the top in 1939 and then from 1946 - 1956, and again, as iris point out, missed out what would probably have been his very best years..

Which brings us back to the question of do we count the best as the rider who was at the top the longest or the rider who had a shorter period at the top but was probably better in that short period? Which is part of the problem when comparing Lee with Craven or Collins for example.

An excellent summary, which matches my reckoning as well.  Price's overall record was superior to that of Williams, and was a class act over a long career. I do count the 1946 BRC - which was the equivalent to the World Final.  Parker, Farndon, Langton and Frank Charles also won such meetings, and also factoring them in:

1. Peter Craven

2. Tai Woffinden

3. Peter Collins

4. Jack Parker

5. Michael Lee

6. Tommy Price

7. Eric Langton

8. Tom Farndon (sorry Norbold, can only judge him on what he won, rather than what he might have won)

9. Mark Loram

10. Freddie Williams

11. Frank Charles

12. Gary Havelock

Bottom two are interchangeable.

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by lucifer sam

[lucifer sam 3,953]

6 hours ago, norbold said:

Ok, found them!

The Speedway Star for 13 April, in an article by Frank MacLean, says almost word for word what Brian Burford says in his book, under the headline,  'Craven asks for move'.
The 20 April follow-up, also by Frank MacLean, is headlined, 'Belle Vue said "No" to Craven. This article says:
'Belle Vue gave a very definite "No!" to Peter Craven's request for a transfer recently. In fact, the Manchester track management simply refused to hear anything more about the World Champion going to another track..."
'But the rider in question has other ideas, He told me as much before leaving his Liverpool home to board the plane for Vienna...So the matter, it now appears will need to go to a Board of Arbitration for settlement.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  'Several tracks, and I understand Norwich is one of them, are more than just interested in getting Craven but at this stage when even the question of transfer fees cannot be considered it is impossible to say just where the World Champion would move.....'

Cheers Norbold!

[chunky 6,086]

1 hour ago, lucifer sam said:

An excellent summary, which matches my reckoning as well.  Price's overall record was superior to that of Williams, and was a class act over a long career. I do count the 1946 BRC - which was the equivalent to the World Final.  Parker, Farndon, Langton and Frank Charles also won such meetings, and also factoring them in:

1. Peter Craven

2. Tai Woffinden

3. Peter Collins

4. Jack Parker

5. Michael Lee

6. Tommy Price

7. Eric Langton

8. Tom Farndon (sorry Norbold, can only judge him on what he won, rather than what he might have won)

9. Mark Loram

10. Freddie Williams

11. Frank Charles

12. Gary Havelock

Bottom two are interchangeable.

 

Interesting, Parker above Lee? That should provoke some discussion...

Edited October 4, 2019 by chunky

[chunky 6,086]

5 hours ago, norbold said:

It is also the case that Tommy Price was at the top longer than Freddie Williams. As iris says he qualified for the 1939 World Final and it was only the period between 1951 and 1954 that Fred Williams topped Tommy Price in the League averages. Even in 1950, when Williams won the World Final, he only came 13th in the League averages with an average of 8.75 to Price's 9.83 and 3rd place. In 1955 and 1956, Price again outscored Williams in the League. It is true that in that 1950-1953 period, Williams had a far superior World Final record, but he really only had five years at the top while Price was at the top in 1939 and then from 1946 - 1956, and again, as iris point out, missed out what would probably have been his very best years..

Which brings us back to the question of do we count the best as the rider who was at the top the longest or the rider who had a shorter period at the top but was probably better in that short period? Which is part of the problem when comparing Lee with Craven or Collins for example.

Just how much influence should league averages have? I'm thinking of how good the Boococks were on the domestic scene, but not major threats on the international front.

You say about comparing Lee with Craven or Collins, but again, should Havvy's dominance in '92 outshine Loram's more consistent performances?

[Guest]

I have found the debate on this thread extremely interesting. Some wonderful recollections of all-time British speedway greats.

However it has moved away from its original designation. The thread was initially designed for comparison in regard to British riders who actually won a world title. The thread title is British world champions ratings list.

 

[norbold 7,101]

1 hour ago, gustix said:

I have found the debate on this thread extremely interesting. Some wonderful recollections of all-time British speedway greats.

However it has moved away from its original designation. The thread was initially designed for comparison in regard to British riders who actually won a world title. The thread title is British world champions ratings list.

 

I'm guessing this must be the first time ever that a thread on the Speedway Forum has moved into other interesting discussions not directly related to the original op.

[norbold 7,101]

7 hours ago, chunky said:

Just how much influence should league averages have? I'm thinking of how good the Boococks were on the domestic scene, but not major threats on the international front.

You say about comparing Lee with Craven or Collins, but again, should Havvy's dominance in '92 outshine Loram's more consistent performances?

Well, I guess if we take the question strictly of referring just to the world championship victories and nothing else, Woffinden has to be first as he won 3, then Williams and Craven with 2 and then the rest. No argument.

Your second question is exactly the dilemma I mentioned.

[chunky 6,086]

5 hours ago, norbold said:

Well, I guess if we take the question strictly of referring just to the world championship victories and nothing else, Woffinden has to be first as he won 3, then Williams and Craven with 2 and then the rest. No argument.

Your second question is exactly the dilemma I mentioned.

My point is that league racing is a totally different level to world championship. It is not simply a case of how many titles, but of other performances at the top level, such as world championship rostrums, performance in Inter-Continental Finals and European Finals (although the quality of those did vary greatly), and World Pairs. Of course, these are also intertwined with longevity and consistency.

It is stuff like that we use (along with home track advantage) when trying to differentiate between riders with similar records, such as Lee/Collins, and Loram/Havelock. However, NOBODY has yet attempted to compare Craven and Williams!

I maintain that Woffy's SoN heroics last year were far more impressive than PC's WTC maximums. Woffy faced the vast majority of the world's best riders - at least twice - whereas Collins faced Michanek and Sjosten. His other main rivals were either not there (Mauger, Olsen etc) or on his own team. Forget about three meetings against one too, as Collins had 12 races against Tai's 13.

Steve

[iris123 20,938]

Mickthemuppet did compare Williams and Craven. He said Freddie beat PC far more often. That was when I noted PC was 8 years younger and a rising star at the time. For me wrong to do that , and even more so if mick had mainly for instance seen their clashes at Wembley rather that Belle Vue. All distorts the impression