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Phil The Ace

Belle Vue Aces 2020

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20 hours ago, Daniel Smith said:

Are you asking how 4th could possibly record a faster time than 1st?

Simply put, if you gate a second behind the others & finish half a second behind 1st but finish 4th your transponder will record a faster 4 laps than the rider who finishes 1st.

It also depends on where on the bike the responder is. 

Transponders activate buy passing a beam or cable that runs the width of the track so the start timing of the tapes going up is irrelevant. 

Hence, in speedway transponders can be more inaccurate than a guy with a stop watch. 

As another example, in formula one, they don't officially record the 1st lap time as it always records the guys at the back as being fastest as they get a better run up to the start finish line. 

I understand now thanks :t:

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On 8/4/2020 at 11:26 PM, Daniel Smith said:

Are you asking how 4th could possibly record a faster time than 1st?

Simply put, if you gate a second behind the others & finish half a second behind 1st but finish 4th your transponder will record a faster 4 laps than the rider who finishes 1st.

It also depends on where on the bike the responder is. 

Transponders activate buy passing a beam or cable that runs the width of the track so the start timing of the tapes going up is irrelevant. 

Hence, in speedway transponders can be more inaccurate than a guy with a stop watch. 

As another example, in formula one, they don't officially record the 1st lap time as it always records the guys at the back as being fastest as they get a better run up to the start finish line. 

Not sure if this example is correct, I have never seen a GP where the cars at the rear of the start,are closer to the cars at the front of the grid, surely if they are further apart at the end of the 1st lap, then their lap time must be slower than the car at the front of the start line.????????????

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1 hour ago, hyderd said:

Not sure if this example is correct, I have never seen a GP where the cars at the rear of the start,are closer to the cars at the front of the grid, surely if they are further apart at the end of the 1st lap, then their lap time must be slower than the car at the front of the start line.????????????

Only if they are further apart though, the last on the grid could have the fastest 1 st lap in theory.The example is correct IMO

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2 hours ago, hyderd said:

Not sure if this example is correct, I have never seen a GP where the cars at the rear of the start,are closer to the cars at the front of the grid, surely if they are further apart at the end of the 1st lap, then their lap time must be slower than the car at the front of the start line.????????????

 

59 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Only if they are further apart though, the last on the grid could have the fastest 1 st lap in theory.The example is correct IMO

Exactly right. It's theory hence why first lap times are not recorded in F1. The only times recorded in F1 on the first lap is the gap differences between cars. Even the sector times are not officially recorded on the first lap.

Anyway. The argument is the accurate recording of fastest in Speedway. With transponders, it's an inaccurate way to record track records. No more accurate than a guy with a stop watch. 

 

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On 8/9/2020 at 12:06 PM, Daniel Smith said:

 

Exactly right. It's theory hence why first lap times are not recorded in F1. The only times recorded in F1 on the first lap is the gap differences between cars. Even the sector times are not officially recorded on the first lap.

Anyway. The argument is the accurate recording of fastest in Speedway. With transponders, it's an inaccurate way to record track records. No more accurate than a guy with a stop watch. 

 

Are we talking 1 lap or 4 laps as in speedway, if it's 1 lap I have never seen a race, run over 1 lap, if it's 4 laps, the one with the fastest time is the winner recardless of if he gated quickest or slowest. How did this conversation start.???????? 

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When Wembley were racing in the league they had track records for one, two, and three laps  as well as the normal four. I think the one lap dash track record was 17.8seconds

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13 hours ago, hyderd said:

Are we talking 1 lap or 4 laps as in speedway, if it's 1 lap I have never seen a race, run over 1 lap, if it's 4 laps, the one with the fastest time is the winner recardless of if he gated quickest or slowest. How did this conversation start.???????? 

You started it ,you obviously don’t understand your own question.

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On 8/9/2020 at 12:06 PM, Daniel Smith said:

 

Anyway. The argument is the accurate recording of fastest in Speedway. With transponders, it's an inaccurate way to record track records. No more accurate than a guy with a stop watch. 

 

The obvious solution is to have the transponders activated remotely as the tapes rise. That way you will then get the guy who finishes in 1st with the fastest time and the guy who comes 4th with the slowest time. Fairly simple solution.

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On 8/9/2020 at 12:06 PM, Daniel Smith said:

 

Exactly right. It's theory hence why first lap times are not recorded in F1. The only times recorded in F1 on the first lap is the gap differences between cars. Even the sector times are not officially recorded on the first lap.

Anyway. The argument is the accurate recording of fastest in Speedway. With transponders, it's an inaccurate way to record track records. No more accurate than a guy with a stop watch. 

 

I think you'll find the reason the first lap of a F1 race is not recorded is because not all cars travel the same distance on the first lap, there are sensors installed under each grid slot, to detect jump starts and the main timing loop is installed on the Finish line, notice I didn't say Start/Finish line, some F1 circuits have the Finish line behind the grid, so in effect at some circuits, the front of the grid do not cross the Finish line and do not complete a full lap. The first lap timings are simply the time it takes from the Lights going out to the time the car crosses the Finish line on completion of the first lap, irrespective of whether the Cars cross the finish line on there way to the first bend or not.  
There are some circuits were the start line is in a different location to the Finish line.

 

Edited by pvm
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On 8/1/2020 at 1:43 PM, ch958 said:

Mark Lemon has described the newly fitted speed transponders as a step forward for the sport. To me its just more money to not make anything better, along with 4 valvers, laydowns, etc

It depends on what you use the transponders for, in an Ideal world, I would like the transponders to be used as part of the start process.
The process should be:-
Start Marshall calls riders to tapes.
When ready the Start Marshall indicates to referee, who presses a button to turn on the green light. The rest of the process is controlled by a computer.
The computer releases the tapes between 1 & 4 seconds of the green light coming on, or whatever the current rules are.

The computer has reaction time parameters set, and if a rider reacts quicker than those parameters, it's a false start, if none of rider do, the races continues, irrespective of a rider missing the start or reacting slower than everyone else. The transponders could also detect riders who are not still once the green light comes on.
You could theoretically allow one or more rider(s) to jump the start and add a time penalty at the end of the race, and reduce the number of restarts, not sure if that would be popular, but you could do it.  

Edited by pvm

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15 hours ago, Najjer said:

The obvious solution is to have the transponders activated remotely as the tapes rise. That way you will then get the guy who finishes in 1st with the fastest time and the guy who comes 4th with the slowest time. Fairly simple solution.

Yeah, exactly...it's not rocket science.

It's not like the transponders even need to have any remote activation as the transponders are reporting back to a base. The base just needs to be looped into the starting mechanism so that it knows when the tapes were released and after that it's not difficult to do the calculations...

Of course, transponders aren't the answer to everything. I have seen races where the initial transponder result shows a winner, only to be overturned when the photo finish has been examined...At high speed a slight difference in placement of the transponder can make a relatively big difference. The chances of that at the speeds of speedway are probably fairly slim unless there is some very poor placement of transponders....and even in those situations, they would always be much better than some old bloke fumbling with a stopwatch.

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7 minutes ago, pvm said:

The transponders could also detect riders who are not still once the green light comes on.

That's actually quite difficult to do. You would need a bunch of timing loops in very close proximity at the start line...Although, thinking about it, that would be far easier for a sport like speedway where everyone lines up together, rather than most motorsports where there is a staggered start.

Quote

You could theoretically allow one or more rider(s) to jump the start and add a time penalty at the end of the race, and reduce the number of restarts, not sure if that would be popular, but you could do it.  

I've had the same thoughts before and I kinda like it and also dislike it at the same time :D
To me, that is more an option if there isn't a technical solution for determining a jump start...
I can definitely see the appeal of just letting a potentially false start go and handing out a time penalty at the end of the race, rather than the current situation where a ref pulls back a race and then admits that he got it wrong...

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Good to see NSS has received it’s certification re Covid and can now move forward.

Hopefully the Peter Craven M T will be able to be run as well as The BYC

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On 8/28/2020 at 12:11 PM, Gunner85 said:

Good to see NSS has received it’s certification re Covid and can now move forward.

Hopefully the Peter Craven M T will be able to be run as well as The BYC

AND the SON ...

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1 hour ago, PHILIPRISING said:

AND the SON ...

Perhaps someone could answer this question for me?

Surely there must be a limit imposed on crowd numbers for any event at present?

With the grandstand seating already completely sold out for the SON how will that work?

Not to mention all the tickets already sold for the back straight standing.

If permission has been given for unlimited attendance then I withdraw my query, but I

haven't seen that announced anywhere.

 

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