Who is an NDL rider?

[00000 1,279]

At the moment, it seems that a number of 'established' NDL riders may not get a place in 2020.

And, when it comes to 2021, the losses could be greater.

It appears that the BSPA wants to rule out the perennial Div 3 riders from the NDL and make it once again a true training league. There would appear to be no place for 'established' NDL riders in future.

My worry is that many NDL riders have found the step from NDL to CL too big in recent years. They have fallen by the wayside,

If you accept that premise, it leaves a big question for the 'gap' between the CL and NDL in 2021.

And

You can also argue the CL is too close to the PL in terms of quality (just look at doubling up/down). Will action be taken on that?

What's wrong with a proper Div 3 instead of the NDL?

 

 

 

[ch958 2,389]

yes, it is entirely because the gap between div 3 and 2 is far too big; the gap between 2 and 1 much closer. But apparently DU/DD is necessary to make a living

[foamfence 2,917]

16 minutes ago, Richard Weston said:

At the moment, it seems that a number of 'established' NDL riders may not get a place in 2020.

And, when it comes to 2021, the losses could be greater.

It appears that the BSPA wants to rule out the perennial Div 3 riders from the NDL and make it once again a true training league. There would appear to be no place for 'established' NDL riders in future.

My worry is that many NDL riders have found the step from NDL to CL too big in recent years. They have fallen by the wayside,

If you accept that premise, it leaves a big question for the 'gap' between the CL and NDL in 2021.

And

You can also argue the CL is too close to the PL in terms of quality (just look at doubling up/down). Will action be taken on that?

What's wrong with a proper Div 3 instead of the NDL?

 

 

 

The clue is in the name, it's a development league and there is no shortage of young riders waiting to get into it, there have been too many long term career third tier riders blocking the way in recent years.

[False dawn 2,291]

8 minutes ago, Richard Weston said:

What's wrong with a proper Div 3 instead of the NDL?

An interesting analysis. It's clear that the current 3rd level structure is attempting to be both a development / breeding ground for upcoming riders and a "proper" league structure. The latter being something of a necessity for those standalone clubs such as the IoW. I think some of the compromises put in place for 2020 go someway towards addressing these two interdependent needs. Unfortunately there is no totally satisfactory solution as some of consequences you point to shows us. Yes, the relationship between the top two tiers does, to a degree, cast the NDL adrift. This is probably more critical than any internal issues within the NDL. We've debated whether a top league with only 7 clubs is sustainable but it continues. Much longer than many have predicted. Doubling up/down riders have been demonised and have been pointed to as the main problem with British Speedway. But still the rules allow it. One big league has been suggested as the way forward. Presumably the existing NDL would then be the "second" division. The problem then of stepping up from the NDL would seem at least as daunting as it today.

In simple terms, three divisions can operate. They should be clearly operating at a different level with the overlap of standards being clear with the overlap not being too large or too small. The kicker than is how do your average riders make a living?

[00000 1,279]

8 minutes ago, foamfence said:

The clue is in the name, it's a development league and there is no shortage of young riders waiting to get into it, there have been too many long term career third tier riders blocking the way in recent years.

Thanks for the reply, I hope we have an intelligent debate on this subject.

Are we saying that, for some riders, you got to NDL level, but never got to CL standard,  so that's goodbye to semi-professional speedway?

Personally, I am not sure on that but will love reading views.

[00000 1,279]

1 minute ago, False dawn said:

An interesting analysis. It's clear that the current 3rd level structure is attempting to be both a development / breeding ground for upcoming riders and a "proper" league structure. The latter being something of a necessity for those standalone clubs such as the IoW. I think some of the compromises put in place for 2020 go someway towards addressing these two interdependent needs. Unfortunately there is no totally satisfactory solution as some of consequences you point to shows us. Yes, the relationship between the top two tiers does, to a degree, cast the NDL adrift. This is probably more critical than any internal issues within the NDL. We've debated whether a top league with only 7 clubs is sustainable but it continues. Much longer than many have predicted. Doubling up/down riders have been demonised and have been pointed to as the main problem with British Speedway. But still the rules allow it. One big league has been suggested as the way forward. Presumably the existing NDL would then be the "second" division. The problem then of stepping up from the NDL would seem at least as daunting as it today.

In simple terms, three divisions can operate. They should be clearly operating at a different level with the overlap of standards being clear with the overlap not being too large or too small. The kicker than is how do your average riders make a living?

And thanks for your views which popped up while formulating by reply to first post.

[foamfence 2,917]

1 minute ago, Richard Weston said:

Thanks for the reply, I hope we have an intelligent debate on this subject.

Are we saying that, for some riders, you got to NDL level, but never got to CL standard,  so that's goodbye to semi-professional speedway?

Personally, I am not sure on that but will love reading views.

There are no guarantees what level any individual will reach, in nature it's called 'natural selection' where those who are good enough survive and those who aren't don't. Speedway doesn't owe anyone a living but it should give aspiring riders a chance. 

[PotteringAround 630]

1 hour ago, foamfence said:

And there is no shortage of young riders waiting to get into it, there have been too many long term career third tier riders blocking the way in recent years.

That really isn't true though is it?

All the promising 15-year-old riders this year got places...  Thompson, Thompson, Palin, Ablitt, Mulford, Wirtzfeld, McGurk.     The only real promising 15-year-old for 2020 - Sam Hagon - has already got a team place.

So who are all these other "young riders waiting to get in"?

And who are all the "long-term career" riders blocking NDL places?     Ben Wilson is now retired and I'd agree Rob Ledwith should never have been allowed in on 3.50.   Shelby Rutherford is the only old-timer I'd say is blocking an NDL place without a hope of ever progressing to CL standard (and he won't be in 2020 NDL).

 

The NDL isn't the problem.  The NDL should not be being weakened like it is. The NDL is churning out good young kids of a decent standard.

The Championship is the problem.  Those reaching the top in the NDL should have a natural career progression into the Championship, but they're getting stuffed.  

The Championship should not be allowing Premiership heat-leaders to double down.  The Championship needs to be brought down to a proper second division level.  The top NDL riders should be able to move up to Championship knowing they can hold down a place.  They shouldn't be coming up against Craig Cook, Danny King, Chris Harris and co.

The gap between Championship and Premiership is too close.   That gap needs widening by weakening the Championship.

The gap between Championship and NDL is too wide. This needs closing, again by weakening the Championship.   We do not need to weaken the NDL.  That only widens the gap again.  Getting the Championship down to its correct level will allow the natural progression from the NDL.

Second half competitions like the MDSL can then feed the NDL.

 

 

 

 

 

[False dawn 2,291]

4 minutes ago, PotteringAround said:

The NDL isn't the problem.  The NDL should not be being weakened like it is. The NDL is churning out good young kids of a decent standard.

The Championship is the problem.  Those reaching the top in the NDL should have a natural career progression into the Championship, but they're getting stuffed.  

The Championship should not be allowing Premiership heat-leaders to double down.  The Championship needs to be brought down to a proper second division level.  The top NDL riders should be able to move up to Championship knowing they can hold down a place.  They shouldn't be coming up against Craig Cook, Danny King, Chris Harris and co.

The gap between Championship and Premiership is too close.   That gap needs widening by weakening the Championship.

The gap between Championship and NDL is too wide. This needs closing, again by weakening the Championship.   We do not need to weaken the NDL.  That only widens the gap again.  Getting the Championship down to its correct level will allow the natural progression from the NDL.

Second half competitions like the MDSL can then feed the NDL.

You echo many of the sentiments I was trying to articulate above. Only better than me.

My parting shot was though, if you were to get the Championship "down to its correct level" (which I agree would remedy many of the problems in the NDL being voiced here) what impact would it have on those middle order Premiership riders? They all now expect to earn half (?) their living from doubling down.

[East End Fan 426]

30 minutes ago, PotteringAround said:

That really isn't true though is it?

All the promising 15-year-old riders this year got places...  Thompson, Thompson, Palin, Ablitt, Mulford, Wirtzfeld, McGurk.     The only real promising 15-year-old for 2020 - Sam Hagon - has already got a team place.

So who are all these other "young riders waiting to get in"?

And who are all the "long-term career" riders blocking NDL places?     Ben Wilson is now retired and I'd agree Rob Ledwith should never have been allowed in on 3.50.   Shelby Rutherford is the only old-timer I'd say is blocking an NDL place without a hope of ever progressing to CL standard (and he won't be in 2020 NDL).

 

The NDL isn't the problem.  The NDL should not be being weakened like it is. The NDL is churning out good young kids of a decent standard.

The Championship is the problem.  Those reaching the top in the NDL should have a natural career progression into the Championship, but they're getting stuffed.  

The Championship should not be allowing Premiership heat-leaders to double down.  The Championship needs to be brought down to a proper second division level.  The top NDL riders should be able to move up to Championship knowing they can hold down a place.  They shouldn't be coming up against Craig Cook, Danny King, Chris Harris and co.

The gap between Championship and Premiership is too close.   That gap needs widening by weakening the Championship.

The gap between Championship and NDL is too wide. This needs closing, again by weakening the Championship.   We do not need to weaken the NDL.  That only widens the gap again.  Getting the Championship down to its correct level will allow the natural progression from the NDL.

Second half competitions like the MDSL can then feed the NDL.

 

 

 

 

 

Pottering Around has hit the nail squarely on the head.  Wouldn't it be nice if those with the decisions to make take notice.

There is, of course a problem in the money available to the riders at the lower end.  That could prove to be insoluble.

[PotteringAround 630]

18 minutes ago, False dawn said:

what impact would it have on those middle order Premiership riders? They all now expect to earn half (?) their living from doubling down.

You raise a very good point, and one to which I think there is no satisfactory answer.

If we tell the top Premiership riders like Cook, King and Harris that they can no longer "take candy from babies" by doubling down into the second division, they're not going to be happy with the pay cut.   But for the good of the sport we must find a way to do it.   I don't have the answer on how we do that.  The situation should never have been allowed to get out of control as it has.

Allowing young upcoming 2nd division riders to double up into the top-flight was a good-intentioned idea.  But stupidly it was extended to allow established top division riders to double down.  It's now very difficult to reverse this mistake, and I certainly don't see how it can be reversed in one year. 

Question:   How did top flight riders survive on one wage in the days before doubling down?

[False dawn 2,291]

6 minutes ago, PotteringAround said:

I don't have the answer on how we do that.

Well at least you're honest enough to say so. I don't know either. But we're clearly open to exploring the idea and hopefully coming to a consensus. Long live The Forum. eh?

I'll throw this old chestnut in for what it's worth. Decision making by those with a vested interest, might not be the best way to run the sport. An independent governing body may just be the route to a more visionary future.

7 minutes ago, PotteringAround said:

Question:   How did top flight riders survive on one wage in the days before doubling down?

I think their aspirations weren't as high and there were more punters going through the turnstiles to pay their wages

[False dawn 2,291]

For the record. The year end doubling up/down figures were as follows:

P only	19
P&C	29
C only	33
C&N	14
N only	41
P&C&N	1

That's 137 riders filling 182 places

or if you prefer it visually, my attempt at a Venn diagram:

Edited December 29, 2019 by False dawn

[Old Crusader 135]

9 hours ago, False dawn said:

For the record. The year end doubling up/down figures were as follows:

P only	19
P&C	29
C only	33
C&N	14
N only	41
P&C&N	1

That's 137 riders filling 182 places

or if you prefer it visually, my attempt at a Venn diagram:

 

10 hours ago, False dawn said:

Well at least you're honest enough to say so. I don't know either. But we're clearly open to exploring the idea and hopefully coming to a consensus. Long live The Forum. eh?

I'll throw this old chestnut in for what it's worth. Decision making by those with a vested interest, might not be the best way to run the sport. An independent governing body may just be the route to a more visionary future.

I think their aspirations weren't as high and there were more punters going through the turnstiles to pay their wages

Aspirations weren't as high and there were more punters going through the turnstiles to pay their wages. Doesn't this sum up the problem with British Speedway? We need to realise that it's popularity has waned immmensly over the years meaning there is only so much money to go around. Cut your cloth accordingly meaning only top class riders can be completely reliant on a full time income say in Division 1 Premiership. No doubling down only up so that riders can progress if they prove good enough in time. Seemed to work in the 70s majority in Division 2 had to work outside speedway.

[szkocjasid 2,940]

Biggest issues with future NL I see are:

1) a lower points limit / standard meaning it's harder to step up to Champ level!

2) if there's a low points limit a 5.00 "journeyman" may get a place ahead of a promising 8.00 "youngster"

3) calling it a true "junior development league" what about the 20 something's who come in from Motocross?

4) is there a place for a previous Champ level rider who has been dropped by his Champ team? Look at Charles Wright dropped by Edinburgh / Glasgow / Redcar, signs for Buxton - now British Champ!