Terry 1,319 Posted February 18, 2020 2 hours ago, uk_martin said: I don't buy the "set up for Müller" argument. Prior to the World Final, Erik Gundersen held the track record. In the World Final, Gundersen's old track record was beaten in every heat. That means everyone was able to ride quickly. Müller was simply quicker than everyone else. Not a fact that sits comfortably with the "British are best" brigade or those with a grudge against riders who don't ride in the British leagues. But that's not something that's changed from then to now, either. I remember the TV footage of Carter and Sanders muttering to each other about how Muller can be so good. It was like they'd never heard of him before! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Stadia 1,064 Posted February 18, 2020 51 minutes ago, Terry said: I remember the TV footage of Carter and Sanders muttering to each other about how Muller can be so good. It was like they'd never heard of him before! I also remember Dave Lanning interviewing Bruce Penhall and Bruce said he had crossed the boarder (German I presume) in the boot of a car! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terry 1,319 Posted February 18, 2020 33 minutes ago, Ray Stadia said: I also remember Dave Lanning interviewing Bruce Penhall and Bruce said he had crossed the boarder (German I presume) in the boot of a car! Sounds like what Len Silver did with Zenon Plech. Going back to Norden I recall Bruce wearing a Kenny Carter rosette! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RobMcCaffery 2,752 Posted February 18, 2020 5 hours ago, uk_martin said: I don't buy the "set up for Müller" argument. Prior to the World Final, Erik Gundersen held the track record. In the World Final, Gundersen's old track record was beaten in every heat. That means everyone was able to ride quickly. Müller was simply quicker than everyone else. Not a fact that sits comfortably with the "British are best" brigade or those with a grudge against riders who don't ride in the British leagues. But that's not something that's changed from then to now, either. Were you there? If the track had been set up for Muller then having the fastest times would prove, not disprove the point. There were plenty of people with this view on the terraces. Muller had been good at speedway bit not that good, either before or after. So, how was it that suddenly he was faster than the world's elite.....for one day? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RobMcCaffery 2,752 Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Grachan said: I don't see how the track was perfect for him and yet nobody else could apparently ride it. If he was handed any advantage at all it was probably through his engine, rather than the track. Muller was a worthy champion though. And, yes, I was there. I was also at the 1976 final and Muller was pretty sensational in that one, too, coming close to getting 11 points. Hardly the form of someone who had done little to enhance his speedway reputation. Also, if you watch the Ivan Mauger documentary, Ivan's wife talks about how Ivan used to get very stressed about trying to do things that Muller was doing - so he can't have been that bad. He was also, perhaps, fortunate that his home country World Final fitted nicely after Penhall retiring and Nielsen/Gundersen still not quite ready for World domination. But, in that final, he was so dominant that you cannot dispute his legitimacy. Also, before the final, the general consensus on our bus was that Muller was favourite to win, and, when my friend got him in the sweepstake, everyone groaned and tried to swap with him. The venue itself was an odd one, though. Not so much the stadium itself, but its location. I went on a Speedway tour and, initially, we were put into people's houses, with the bus parked in a cul-de-sac. Some people (mainly Belle Vue fans as I remember) refused to leave the bus and insisted we were put in a hotel. Eventually we were moved to a town somewhere - I don't even know what town it was! - and put in a hotel, which, I recall, was a long way from the track. I didn't say nobody else could ride it . If having the track prepared to favour the home rider and to allow maximum track practice isn't an influence why do countries, especially the Poles but apart from Britain do it? Edited February 18, 2020 by RobMcCaffery 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,922 Posted February 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Terry said: I remember the TV footage of Carter and Sanders muttering to each other about how Muller can be so good. It was like they'd never heard of him before! Sounds a bit like Ward and Holder with Smolinski.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,922 Posted February 18, 2020 Think there is a lot of truth in the bike being the major factor, rather than track. Heard Egon a few times say how he rode the thing round country lanes to get the set- up right and got stopped by the old bill once. They immediately recognized him and let him carry on. So it wasn’t as if he was just riding the track to get things perfect Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Stadia 1,064 Posted February 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, iris123 said: Think there is a lot of truth in the bike being the major factor, rather than track. Heard Egon a few times say how he rode the thing round country lanes to get the set- up right and got stopped by the old bill once. They immediately recognized him and let him carry on. So it wasn’t as if he was just riding the track to get things perfect I remember hearing that story. The engine was virtually the first GM and definitely put GM on the map, so a lot of 'getting it right' would have gone on! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tigerblade 221 Posted February 18, 2020 5 hours ago, Terry said: I remember the TV footage of Carter and Sanders muttering to each other about how Muller can be so good. It was like they'd never heard of him before! When they both would have raced against him numerous times before.... It is a classic case of because he didn't take UK speedway seriously (probably to be far, speedway in general), the UK didn't take him seriously. People talk about Egon, and Jerzy Szczakiel being not "world class", but in my opinion, Les Collins, with every respect to the bloke, would have been a bigger "shock" World Champion had he done it in 1982. He was certainly an excellent rider at his peak, but not one of the very top averaging riders of that era. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oleoleole 227 Posted February 18, 2020 4 hours ago, Ray Stadia said: I also remember Dave Lanning interviewing Bruce Penhall and Bruce said he had crossed the boarder (German I presume) in the boot of a car! Peter Adams told us the tale when he was a guest at an NSSC meeting. Peter was driving Bruce and the World Championship trophy to Germany. When they arrived at the ferry Bruce realised he hadn’t got his passport. With no time to return to the Midlands to collect it, and the need to get the trophy to the final, they decided to hide Bruce in the boot and managed to get him through all the checks to Germany. As you can imagine that is a very short version of Peter’s long and very funny story. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,081 Posted February 18, 2020 11 hours ago, Grachan said: I was also at the 1976 final and Muller was pretty sensational in that one, too, coming close to getting 11 points. 1977 was a similar story, and he proved that he was far from being there to make up the numbers. Had he actually taken speedway seriously before Norden, he could easily have won more titles, or at least picked up a couple of medals. Like you said, it wasn't like it was a surprise to see him win... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,242 Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Tigerblade said: When they both would have raced against him numerous times before.... It is a classic case of because he didn't take UK speedway seriously (probably to be far, speedway in general), the UK didn't take him seriously. People talk about Egon, and Jerzy Szczakiel being not "world class", but in my opinion, Les Collins, with every respect to the bloke, would have been a bigger "shock" World Champion had he done it in 1982. He was certainly an excellent rider at his peak, but not one of the very top averaging riders of that era. I seem to remember that Egon scored 11 from 4 starts at Birmingham (not one of the bigger tracks it has to be said) in 1976 during his short spell riding for Hull. Proved that he could do it but I guess riding full time in the UK just didn't appeal as the big money was to be had riding on the continent. Minor point but Hull utilised the R/R/R for him in 1977 despite him not turning out for them. Edited February 18, 2020 by steve roberts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatface 2,549 Posted February 18, 2020 Seems like half the forum was there. Me too! Also on a coach from Amsterdam. I seem to recall an organised trip to a cheese maker too! I don't question Muller's standing as a world class rider. He was for many years. But it was more the way he won it. Thought it then and it still plays out now on the video, he is absolutely miles faster than anyone else on the day. The rest look like they are on 350ccs in comparison. Muller was good and probably a few years past his peak in 83. In normal circumstances, he would have still been a handful for everyone on home turf, as he was at the 81 WTC at Olching. But there's no way he was that much better than the world's best without there being a serious mechanical advantage at play. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cityrebel 2,960 Posted February 18, 2020 Me too, it shows what a load of old fogies we are. I really enjoyed the 1987 two day final. You can't beat a long weekend in Amsterdam! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RobMcCaffery 2,752 Posted February 18, 2020 Only one of us commentated on it ;-) The point about Muller's engine is probably very close to the mark. Either way, maybe it was the surroundings but the whole event just didn't feel 'right'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
