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Covid-19 Are we being told the truth ?

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46 minutes ago, DC2 said:

Winter is a disaster every year for the NHS:

why didn’t the government plan for this winter?

why weren’t thousands more nurses recruited in June?

why weren’t the Nightingales re-opened before London hospitals got to 85% occupancy?

We’re there “thousands more nurses” available to be recruited in June?

If there wasn’t, would that mean Nightingales probably couldn’t be staffed.?

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6 hours ago, Shrub said:

All the scenes of the under pressure hospitals shown on the news do look distressing and installs a gut fear that it could be you or a loved one, and you cannot have anything but an emotional empathy with the patients and staff involved. As Fenway said the other day this feeling of emotion and fear, re-enforced by continual sensationalist media has easily trumped stats, evidence and graphs no matter how well researched and intentioned by the anti lockdown side. You are seen by many as an unfeeling bastard for not agreeing, daring to question or disputing the government's interpretation of the figures and lockdown policy. That your arguments are all based on cold stark statistics, figures, data charts and graphs, not people.  

But imagine if we were bombarded night after night on the news with, instead of hospitals bulging at the seams, queues of ambulances and stressed staff, footage of a consultant looking a patient in the eye and saying 'I'm sorry, you have advanced stage cancer, we've caught it too late, there's little we can do' then it cuts to a doctor holding an old ladies hand saying 'with all the delays and cancellations to your op I'm afraid that your treatable condition is now a permanent one' then it moves to someone opening a letter or email that tells them they no longer have a job. Then to a business owner packing his last belongings as he locks and leaves his recently collapsed business for the last time. Next to a despairing parent as they watch their child falling further behind at school because they haven't got and can't afford the equipment for online schooling. Then on to the single parent who has recently lost her job and is feeding her three kids with one tin of beans and nothing for herself. Finally we move to the police informing a distraught parent that their child has committed suicide. Sensationalist of course and won't happen and nor should it but these are scenes now playing out, some multiple times everyday and some will carry on happening for years to come, all due to lockdown. But what would the public say if this sort of scenario was on our screens, night after night after night? Lockdown advocates at some point have to face up to the realities that the policy they support are creating.

This is as far as I see it the far bigger picture and a more damaging situation that will resonate for years, long after the pandemic is over. Alternative strategies from well respected figures have been tabled but are not even discussed. Just trying the same failed idea of locking down over and over again hoping for a different outcome is sheer bloody madness.

A brilliantly written explanation that covers my views exactly - only wish I could have put it so well.

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The social problems and ethnic differences that make Covid a particular problem in urban areas...

Big social differences

Stockholm accounts for over a third of Sweden's deaths in covid-19. Compared with many other places in Sweden, the capital has also had a very high excess mortality rate, not least when the pandemic struck this spring

Once the infection had established itself, the metropolitan region was particularly vulnerable. The fact that large cities are hit harder by the coronavirus follows international patterns, and a study has pointed out, among other things, poorer air quality, fewer green areas and extensive public transport as driving factors.

Not least, the pandemic has highlighted major social differences in cities. Like research from the USA and the UK, which show that the virus strikes harder at socio-economically vulnerable and minority groups, there have been alarms about the consequences of the spread of infection in Stockholm's suburbs.

Income is namely the most decisive factor for dying in covid-19, outside the nursing homes, the Stockholm Region stated in a recent report .

Another study, published in Läkartidningen , describes how overcrowding, multi-generational housing and fewer opportunities for social distancing contribute to people in million program areas being hit harder by the virus. 

When a high proportion of the inhabitants in the area also work in care, where many have part-time jobs and are dependent on public transport, the infection can circulate to a greater extent, according to the researchers. 

- Even in the inner city there is a certain overcrowding, but then you often have occupations where you can work remotely or not work too closely with other people. In suburban areas, you more often have manual occupations, or occupations in close contact with others. Then the infection also comes in easier, says co-author Maria Albin, chief physician and professor of occupational and environmental medicine at Karolinska Institute.

"Cracks in welfare"

Expressen's reporter Frida Sundkvist has in several reviews , through surveys of postcodes, shown the same pattern. Among other things, the proportion of corona tests is significantly lower in Stockholm's vulnerable areas - despite the fact that this is where most people become seriously ill and die.

According to Maria Albin, however, overcrowding is only a partial explanation for the corona hitting big cities in particular.

- It is complex, but that city dwellers generally have more contacts with many other people is also important. Part of the attraction of big city life is to move among a lot of people, and to have a large selection of culture and restaurants. Things that in this situation involve danger, she says.

Albin and her co-authors point out in the study that there is also an excess mortality among certain immigrant groups, which is confirmed by Statistics Sweden.

- Especially in the spring, but also now in the autumn, foreign-born from low-income countries have accounted for an unusually high proportion of deaths. Some backgrounds have been hit particularly hard, for example, more than twice as many people born in Somalia have died this year compared with the five-year average, says population statistician Tomas Johansson.

Sweden's strategy has not taken sufficient account of the group's potential vulnerability, Maria Albin believes.

- The pandemic has shown cracks in welfare. We must take into account living conditions and socio-economic vulnerability in the work with infection control, not just health conditions. It is also important with dialogue and participation so that groups with worse conditions do not feel marginalized.

 

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9 hours ago, OveFundinFan said:

We’re there “thousands more nurses” available to be recruited in June?

If there wasn’t, would that mean Nightingales probably couldn’t be staffed.?

The first point is true, you cant just recruit in June for this winter, however if we had been recruiting for the last ten years we might have stood a chance

The nightingale hospitals were always a propaganda thing, there would never be enough staff to open them 

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1 minute ago, The Third Man said:

The first point is true, you cant just recruit in June for this winter, however if we had been recruiting for the last ten years we might have stood a chance

The nightingale hospitals were always a propaganda thing, there would never be enough staff to open them 

But that was always the problem that the NHS was in such a state. Even before Covid the waiting list for operations was getting longer and longer. And of course one side even used it as propaganda for Brexit that extra money would go to the NHS funding. It was all known.

One problem anyway is that during the winter months more people are sick and that includes NHS staff....so it is not just about how many beds are available, which one or two are concentrating on

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Shrub said:

All the scenes of the under pressure hospitals shown on the news do look distressing and installs a gut fear that it could be you or a loved one, and you cannot have anything but an emotional empathy with the patients and staff involved. As Fenway said the other day this feeling of emotion and fear, re-enforced by continual sensationalist media has easily trumped stats, evidence and graphs no matter how well researched and intentioned by the anti lockdown side. You are seen by many as an unfeeling bastard for not agreeing, daring to question or disputing the government's interpretation of the figures and lockdown policy. That your arguments are all based on cold stark statistics, figures, data charts and graphs, not people.  

But imagine if we were bombarded night after night on the news with, instead of hospitals bulging at the seams, queues of ambulances and stressed staff, footage of a consultant looking a patient in the eye and saying 'I'm sorry, you have advanced stage cancer, we've caught it too late, there's little we can do' then it cuts to a doctor holding an old ladies hand saying 'with all the delays and cancellations to your op I'm afraid that your treatable condition is now a permanent one' then it moves to someone opening a letter or email that tells them they no longer have a job. Then to a business owner packing his last belongings as he locks and leaves his recently collapsed business for the last time. Next to a despairing parent as they watch their child falling further behind at school because they haven't got and can't afford the equipment for online schooling. Then on to the single parent who has recently lost her job and is feeding her three kids with one tin of beans and nothing for herself. Finally we move to the police informing a distraught parent that their child has committed suicide. Sensationalist of course and won't happen and nor should it but these are scenes now playing out, some multiple times everyday and some will carry on happening for years to come, all due to lockdown. But what would the public say if this sort of scenario was on our screens, night after night after night? Lockdown advocates at some point have to face up to the realities that the policy they support are creating.

This is as far as I see it the far bigger picture and a more damaging situation that will resonate for years, long after the pandemic is over. Alternative strategies from well respected figures have been tabled but are not even discussed. Just trying the same failed idea of locking down over and over again hoping for a different outcome is sheer bloody madness.

If only people could see past the front pages. i think anyone with a bit about them knows there are multiple elephants in the room that are getting totally ignored which will come back to bite us in a big way in the not-too-distant future. Great post, genuinely stopped me in my tracks.

Edited by Kedavra
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19 minutes ago, The Third Man said:

The first point is true, you cant just recruit in June for this winter, 

Not at all.

Fergus Walsh’s BBC piece on Weds showed 9 doctors and nurses being needed to turn a patient.

How long would it take 8 new recruits to do that under the supervision of 1 experienced nurse?

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Shrub said:

All the scenes of the under pressure hospitals shown on the news do look distressing and installs a gut fear that it could be you or a loved one, and you cannot have anything but an emotional empathy with the patients and staff involved. As Fenway said the other day this feeling of emotion and fear, re-enforced by continual sensationalist media has easily trumped stats, evidence and graphs no matter how well researched and intentioned by the anti lockdown side. You are seen by many as an unfeeling bastard for not agreeing, daring to question or disputing the government's interpretation of the figures and lockdown policy. That your arguments are all based on cold stark statistics, figures, data charts and graphs, not people.  

But imagine if we were bombarded night after night on the news with, instead of hospitals bulging at the seams, queues of ambulances and stressed staff, footage of a consultant looking a patient in the eye and saying 'I'm sorry, you have advanced stage cancer, we've caught it too late, there's little we can do' then it cuts to a doctor holding an old ladies hand saying 'with all the delays and cancellations to your op I'm afraid that your treatable condition is now a permanent one' then it moves to someone opening a letter or email that tells them they no longer have a job. Then to a business owner packing his last belongings as he locks and leaves his recently collapsed business for the last time. Next to a despairing parent as they watch their child falling further behind at school because they haven't got and can't afford the equipment for online schooling. Then on to the single parent who has recently lost her job and is feeding her three kids with one tin of beans and nothing for herself. Finally we move to the police informing a distraught parent that their child has committed suicide. Sensationalist of course and won't happen and nor should it but these are scenes now playing out, some multiple times everyday and some will carry on happening for years to come, all due to lockdown. But what would the public say if this sort of scenario was on our screens, night after night after night? Lockdown advocates at some point have to face up to the realities that the policy they support are creating.

This is as far as I see it the far bigger picture and a more damaging situation that will resonate for years, long after the pandemic is over. Alternative strategies from well respected figures have been tabled but are not even discussed. Just trying the same failed idea of locking down over and over again hoping for a different outcome is sheer bloody madness.

Very fair assessment and I'm the first to admit that I don't agree with all the guidelines that have been put in place and the confusing and/or contradictory way in which they have been implemented and/or interpreted.  However I do find it astonishing that there are those who still feel that the whole issue of the NHS has been blown up out of proportion (or even questioning the whole question of covid referring to it as a conspiracy and/or fake) when it is abundantly clear that they are under intense pressure with the ever increasing number of covid patients. Okay the winter season always raises concerns and its ability to cope but the present pandemic has only added to the problem that exists within the NHS.

Edited by steve roberts
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48 minutes ago, DC2 said:

Not at all.

Fergus Walsh’s BBC piece on Weds showed 9 doctors and nurses being needed to turn a patient.

How long would it take 8 new recruits to do that under the supervision of 1 experienced nurse?

And what do they do apart from that?

I agree a recruitment programme in the summer for ancillary staff would have been helpful but I’m not sure a 1 to 8 ratio of highly skilled to ancillary staff would solve the ICU staffing problem. Maybe Crumpet is better placed to comment on this one.

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Them ruddy conspiracy people are right again...:rolleyes:

 

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6 minutes ago, Blupanther said:

Them ruddy conspiracy people are right again...:rolleyes:

 

Explain how ?

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4 minutes ago, Star Lady said:

And what do they do apart from that?

I agree a recruitment programme in the summer for ancillary staff would have been helpful but I’m not sure a 1 to 8 ratio of highly skilled to ancillary staff would solve the ICU staffing problem. Maybe Crumpet is better placed to comment on this one.

Pretty sure four months would have been enough to recruit and train Covid-specific staff, whether nurses or auxiliaries.

It’s amazing what can be done when there’s a will, whether it’s building the Nightingale hospitals, going from 5,000 tests a day to 500,000, or producing a vaccine in record time!

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1 hour ago, DC2 said:

Not at all.

Fergus Walsh’s BBC piece on Weds showed 9 doctors and nurses being needed to turn a patient.

How long would it take 8 new recruits to do that under the supervision of 1 experienced nurse?

Slight difference, you are talking about Health Care Assistants, and i agree they can be trained a lot quicker than Nurses and could be used to support nurses, as they have always been

There obviously was no plan as to what would happen this winter, when the NHS always struggles, that being at least part of the reason why are locking down again

 

 

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3 minutes ago, The Third Man said:

Slight difference, you are talking about Health Care Assistants, and i agree they can be trained a lot quicker than Nurses and could be used to support nurses, as they have always been

There obviously was no plan as to what would happen this winter, when the NHS always struggles, that being at least part of the reason why are locking down again

 

 

That’s a good point.

Had the government reinforced the NHS ready for winter there would be less need to “stay at home, protect the NHS, save lives”.

Instead it could have been:

“carry on working, we’ve reinforced the NHS, we’ll save lives”.

And don’t get me started on how the government should have had a quarantine plan for the vulnerable!  

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Enormous sums of money have been thrown at the NHS for many years and the perception is that little has changed. The funding for a truly 'National Health Service' free at the point of delivery that delivers all that is required of it, is probably beyond the 'acceptable' in budget terms to any government. The NHS and how it is paid for requires fundamental reform.

 

 

 

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