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Covid-19 Are we being told the truth ?

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3 hours ago, DC2 said:

Regardless of whether you have no choice but to accept and obey the law you can still cast a critical eye over the government rather than solely focus your criticism on those who question the government.

Whether criticism should then be measured in some way to decide whether it’s worthwhile is as pointless as questioning any other aspect of how one leads one’s life.

95% of people in supermarkets still wear masks. I don’t. Some no doubt will think me selfish, others might be encouraged to be a little braver and not wear them next time. Where has that got me?  Only being happy with myself.

I happen to think that lockdowns worked in cutting infection, believe in and have had the vaccine and see no great problem with face-masks having worn one many times pre-pandemic when riding motor cycles. The vast majority of folk I personally know and employ share the same views and I do not personally know anybody who has died of or with covid (though I do know of two who died with/of it last year). I have to wear a face mask in shops at the moment being in Queen Nicolaland but, when in England, if me wearing a mask makes others more comfortable I'll do it - no skin off my nose.

I don't necessarily believe everything the government says - why change the habit of a lifetime, all politicians are prone to the odd untruth - but your view of a lie isn't always mine as much of what was said was a prediction that never materialised. Are those that predicted an England win in Europe '20'21 liars because their predictions were wrong?

OK, now you don't need to you don't wear a face mask (I presume you're in England). I originally asked the question when restrictions were in place.

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Update on Wayne Smith: Pronounced dead after being found at home after friends alerted the police. Guess what they're saying the cause of death was ? Yep, covid. Fortunately Dr Mark Jones has stepped in as Wayne was due to be cremated, but he's managed to stop that and is pushing for independent autopsy.

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In retrospect, the UK was so lucky to have those life-saving lockdowns. Otherwise they would have ended up like the reckless Sweden.

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20 hours ago, DC2 said:

The thrust of that article: “When Dr Elisabeth Bik raised serious concerns about the methodology of a paper that claimed hydroxychloroquine was effective in treating Covid-19, the online trolling was relentless.”

Now perhaps as proof of your claim to be even-handed rather than a lockdown luvvy you can quote your posts decrying the establishment’s response to the eminent scientists behind the Great Barrington Declaration or Carl Heneghan’s desire for “evidence based” medicine?

In the early part of the pandemic, Carl Heneghan's criticism of government and SAGE policy was given considerable coverage in the mainstream media, particularly the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph. In the latter part, however, his contributions have been much reduced in the same sources. That could be because - as he has suggested - that he has been 'suppressed'. It could also be because he has been discredited, at least up to a point.

Based upon a Sunday Times article,  in September 2020 and faced with a call from SAGE for an immediate lockdown, Boris Johnson held a ZOOM call with Heneghan, Sunetra Gupta, Anders Tegnell and John Edmunds of SAGE. Edmunds pressed for the lockdown; Gupta and Heneghan disagreed; we'll never know what Tegnell said because he has refused to disclose it.

Gupta told Johnson - and Heneghan agreed - that he should not lockdown, but impose a set of restrictions, controls and regulations on the general population while shielding those vulnerable to the  virus. In other words, a 'herd immunity approach'. She assured Johnson that such herd immunity would be achieved in 3-6 months,  and her advice may have been influenced by Heneghan's belief on 20 September that there was 'no evidence' of a second wave:

Coronavirus: 'No evidence right now of second wave' says professor | UK News | Sky News

Indeed, Heneghan was still casting doubt on a second wave as late as 9 October, when infections were almost 10 times what they had been at the beginning of September.

Its difficult not to have a little sympathy for Johnson,  at least to the point that he is merely a layman and therefore reliant on the advice of experts (some might suggest so called experts) but he had a number of reasons to question what Gupta was saying. Firstly,  hers was an approach that had been rejected by every government across the globe; secondly, it was one which Tegnell - of all people - later described as 'futile and immoral';  thirdly, Johnson should have known that no virus in history has ever been conquered by herd immunity without the aid of a vaccine and many reports had stated that given the short term immunity affection allows where Covid is concerned it may indeed be impossible; fourthly, Gupta had stated in March that herd immunity might be achieved as low as 10 to 25% of the population and that, indeed, that it may already have been achieved - statements that by September were not just incorrect but ridiculous;  fifthly, she did not put forward a credible and practical plan as to how those vulnerable to moderate to high risk of severe illness or death might be shielded, - nor to my knowledge has anyone else - possibly because according to some estimates that is as many as 22m people, or one third of the population. 

In the event, Johnson did not lockdown. The Sunday Times suggests that this led to 1.3m infections, and between 7 and 13,000 deaths. Its led some to believe that Gupta and Heneghan have 'blood on their hands' and that they 'shouldn't have been allowed near Johnson'. For what its worth I disagree, simply because Johnson should hear all views and, in the event, he didn't follow their advice in full (nor did he follow that from SAGE).

In November, Heneghan - who has always been sceptical of mask wearing - wrote an article in the Spectator which referred to a Danish study in relation to their efficacy:

Landmark Danish study finds no significant effect for facemask wearers | The Spectator

He concluded : 'And now that we have properly rigorous scientific research we can rely on, the evidence shows that wearing masks in the community does not significantly reduce the rates of infection'.

It should be noted that the original title of the article did not include the words 'for facemask wearers'. Of additional importance is that Heneghan - almost certainly deliberately - chose to leave out something that the Danish team had clearly stated in their report : 

“The findings,[...] should not be used to conclude that a recommendation for everyone to wear masks in the community would not be effective in reducing SARS-CoV-2 infections, because the trial did not test the role of masks in source control of SARS-CoV-2 infection”.  Yet that is precisely what Heneghan did.

Heneghan then posted his article on Facebook, only to have it ruled as 'false' following an independent health check. He then tweeted : 'what has happened to academic freedom and freedom of speech ?

A response was made by a Guardian journalist :

We need scientists to quiz Covid consensus, not act as agents of disinformation | Sonia Sodha | The Guardian

'Academic freedom does not imply freedom to spread disinformation. But herein lies a clue as to why scientists might end up here. Some of the biggest jumps in scientific progress have come as a result of outlier scientists challenging the scientific consensus: think Galileo, Einstein, Darwin. Unjustified groupthink, particularly where the evidence is fast-emerging, can be very dangerous to science. That means many scientists rightly see an innate value in challenging consensus thinking.......But challenger science must be based on evidence and data. There is a danger that scientists develop a “Galileo complex” – that they see all scrutiny as akin to the ridicule faced by a scientific giant such as Darwin and cry foul at any challenge'.

This is evident in the writing of Sunetra Gupta, one of the authors of the Great Barrington declaration, when she conflates fair scrutiny with bullying of a scientific pioneer. It is also evident in Heneghan’s claims that labelling his disinformation as such is an intrusion on academic freedom....

The moral of this sorry tale? Trust science, not the scientists. They are only human, subject to the same cognitive biases, the same whims of ego, as the rest of us. In the real world, the line between bravely challenging a lazy consensus and trying to shut down legitimate criticism of bad science can be a thin one. It’s an unnerving realisation, but scientists can be captured by antiscience just like anyone else'.

The way I see it, the UK scientific community as a whole have not exactly covered themselves in glory during the pandemic. Whitty, Vallance, Ferguson and many others have all made mistakes. None, however, was so potentially awful as Heneghan's conclusion in September that there was no second wave and, had we followed his beliefs, we could easily have had a catastrophe on our hands. That is compounded by the November article, because he is unquestionably giving at best an incomplete - and possibly entirely false and potentially disastrous - view, almost certainly as a defence of his own past contentions. 

Heneghan has, indeed, at times made valuable contributions to the COVID debate -particularly around the figures used by SAGE and the way deaths are calculated. However, I would certainly be very careful of the opinions of someone who has been so disastrously wrong in the past and who appears to want 'evidence based' medicine providing it is fully consistent with what he has said in the past and will manipulate it if it isn't. 

 

 

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It’s Thursday August 5th 2021, and some people still believe the PCR testing scam is real. Beyond hope…

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14 minutes ago, Blupanther said:

It’s Thursday August 5th 2021, and some people still believe the PCR testing scam is real. Beyond hope…

...does this mean that you are now back we'll be reading less from Blumpet? :D

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9 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...does this mean that you are now back we'll be reading less from Blumpet? :D

And the nonsense continues I see. Looks like IQ levels have dropped while I was away…:D

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9 minutes ago, Blupanther said:

And the nonsense continues I see. Looks like IQ levels have dropped while I was away…:D

..well it's not about to get any better! :D

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10 minutes ago, Blupanther said:

And the nonsense continues I see. Looks like IQ levels have dropped while I was away…:D

Say’s the person who takes guidance from wife beating drug addicts and voodoo docs and snake oil sellers :rofl:

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Is Melbourne the lockdown capital of the world. Never ending insanity…

 

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Today on BBC there is a report on the number of 18-34 in hospital with covid. Basically says 20% now compared to 5.5% in winter.

Are they playing with stats though as 5.5% of 40k would be over 2000 whereas 20% of roughly 5000 is 1000?

 

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1 minute ago, severnsider said:

Today on BBC there is a report on the number of 18-34 in hospital with covid. Basically says 20% now compared to 5.5% in winter.

Are they playing with stats though as 5.5% of 40k would be over 2000 whereas 20% of roughly 5000 is 1000?

 

 

And the BBC reports them as being Covid “admissions”, whereas we know 25% of the 5,000 in hospital “with Covid” caught it in hospital!

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1 hour ago, Halifaxtiger said:

Heneghan has, indeed, at times made valuable contributions to the COVID debate -particularly around the figures used by SAGE and the way deaths are calculated. However, I would certainly be very careful of the opinions of someone who has been so disastrously wrong in the past and who appears to want 'evidence based' medicine providing it is fully consistent with what he has said in the past and will manipulate it if it isn't. 

Thank you for your characteristically MSM biased assessment of Heneghan.

In his face masks article he refers to nine other studies, not just the Danish one.  Do you have a link to the “independent health check” that discredited his article, because of course it will merely be based on the mainstream establishment narrative.

In September his remarks were not about denying a second wave but that the government’s tier system should be given a proper chance to work before a decision be made on another lockdown.

And then finally you cannot comprehend how “quarantine” could be achieved or do better than lockdown when all you need to do is look at the success in avoiding Covid deaths of those care homes who did quarantine compared to those that merely followed government advice.

Lockdowns are like a colander, full of holes, and their only success is that they occasionally, accidentally create quarantine situations, usually due to individuals’ particular circumstances or to people taking their own action to turn lockdown into quarantine.

 

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19 hours ago, Vincent Blachshadow said:

I don't necessarily believe everything the government says - why change the habit of a lifetime, all politicians are prone to the odd untruth - but your view of a lie isn't always mine as much of what was said was a prediction that never materialised. Are those that predicted an England win in Europe '20'21 liars because their predictions were wrong?

Except, of course, what I normally argue against is not “predictions” but assessments of what’s actually happening or what is being used to justify an action.

Using “cases” to justify drastic actions when there are no resultant deaths is plainly stupid.

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