Your best speedway year

[rjsj9803 322]

26 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

He was on the day i went , Nielsen, Lee, Carter,Sigalos , Gundersen, Sanders all failed to beat him on that given day.

He wouldn't have caught Hans though but for engine failure when half a straight ahead.

That bike of Mullers was a rocket ship that day but totally fluffed the start in his last race.

[chunky 6,086]

3 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

Good old Chunky FACT really dream on in your your own mind it might.  Av a rethink Chunky on this post the arrogance of yourself is embarrassing .

You have accused me of several things tonight. Firstly, when I agreed with FACTS that falcace had posted, you immediately countered with the claim that they were NOT facts. Then you claim that my arrogance is embarrassing because I am standing by those facts.

2 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

give the riders i have named credit.

Then, there is the above statement which clearly indicates that you don't think I am giving them any credit at all, which is a total lie. You have done that several times before, most notably by screaming at me when you claimed that I said Billy Sanders was an "also-ran", which I didn't.

2 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

BUT you love Tai Chunky  can't say anything against him.

Another totally false claim, as all I have ever done is stated that Woffinden's on-track achievements clearly put him above Collins and Lee.

[steve roberts 9,242]

Getting back on topic 1977 was another memorable year for me. White City winning the Championship and so many memorable meetings/moments at Wood Lane. It was my last year at school and therefore starting work and my weekly trips to London were my highlights as well as occasional trips elsewhere around the country supporting "The Rebels". Watching Gordon Kennett develop into a top class rider was a highlight but the whole "Rebels" team were a joy to watch. Cieslak, Weatherley, Geer, Niemi, Gachet, Sampson and Dave Kennett.

Edited April 18, 2020 by steve roberts

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

5 hours ago, chunky said:

You have accused me of several things tonight. Firstly, when I agreed with FACTS that falcace had posted, you immediately countered with the claim that they were NOT facts. Then you claim that my arrogance is embarrassing because I am standing by those facts.

Then, there is the above statement which clearly indicates that you don't think I am giving them any credit at all, which is a total lie. You have done that several times before, most notably by screaming at me when you claimed that I said Billy Sanders was an "also-ran", which I didn't.

Another totally false claim, as all I have ever done is stated that Woffinden's on-track achievements clearly put him above Collins and Lee.

I think not a different era a different challenge believe it or not we are all entitled to maybe have a different opinion.? 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Sidney the robin

[norbold 7,101]

7 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

But Norbold with him out of the way aged 29  and he was approaching his peak it was was a whole lot easier.Plus  Moore had his six year exile as well in which has to be considered.

Why do you think he was "approaching his peak"? What evidence is there for that? Remember he first won the World title in 1955. He was roughly the same age as Fundin and Briggs; Knutson was younger. I would say that all of them, Craven included, were AT their peak in the early-mid 60s.

In addition, I know it's not a fact and just my opinion, but as someone who was around at the time, I would say Craven was fourth best of those four. A view supported by the Speedway Star, who placed him 4th behind Fundin, Knutson, Briggs (in that order) in their 1963 end of year rankings list. Personally, as I said, my view is that he would not have won another World title. Of course, we will never know and who knows what part luck might have played in subsequent finals?

[E I Addio 15,843]

8 hours ago, BWitcher said:

There are qualifying rounds every year, if they're good enough, they'll qualify.

Would Egon Muller have won a GP series? Or Jerzy Szakiel (excuse spelling!)? 

Those two are precisely the reason, IMO , why the One Day Final had to evolve into the GP series in a changing world. If I you look at all the winners prior to Szczakiel , luck obviously played an small part in their wins but you could say that if they were not the absolute best in the world at that time they were pretty close to it. I don’t think you could genuinely say that about either Muller or Szczakiel, and I very much doubt whether either of them would have won if not on their home territory. From ‘73 onwards some riders were getting onto the podium who  were, good riders on the day but not really worthy of top three in the world by any objective test. The GP system was fairer by the time it was introduced , but I can’t help feeling even that has now run its course.

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by E I Addio

[E I Addio 15,843]

29 minutes ago, norbold said:

Why do you think he was "approaching his peak"? What evidence is there for that? Remember he first won the World title in 1955. He was roughly the same age as Fundin and Briggs; Knutson was younger. I would say that all of them, Craven included, were AT their peak in the early-mid 60s.

In addition, I know it's not a fact and just my opinion, but as someone who was around at the time, I would say Craven was fourth best of those four. A view supported by the Speedway Star, who placed him 4th behind Fundin, Knutson, Briggs (in that order) in their 1963 end of year rankings list. Personally, as I said, my view is that he would not have won another World title. Of course, we will never know and who knows what part luck might have played in subsequent finals?

I agree with that, but the more intriguing question is whether Mauger would have won six world titles if Knutson had carried on riding or indeed if Harrfeldt had not suffered his serious injuries. Both were closer to Maugers age than Briggs , Moore or Fundin who were all slightly past their best when Mauger was reaching his peak. Harrfeldt’s record certainly proved he had the talent to take a one off title but I can’t help feeling that Knutssons best was still to come.

[iris123 20,938]

8 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

It is stale and boring and when most of  the older riders exile it will move on again.

But that is the trouble with having the best riders.... they just don’t change every couple of years

Take any sport like say tennis or skiing etc the top people remain on top for years. That is the nature of the beast, apart from when someone gets injured or retired early..,,

[steve roberts 9,242]

27 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

Those two are precisely the reason, IMO , why the One Day Final had to evolve into the GP series in a changing world. If I you look at all the winners prior to Szczakiel , luck obviously played an small part in their wins but you could say that if they were not the absolute best in the world at that time they were pretty close to it. I don’t think you could genuinely say that about either Muller or Szczakiel, and I very much doubt whether either of them would have won if not on their home territory. From ‘73 onwards some riders were getting onto the podium who  were, good riders on the day but not really worthy of top three in the world by any objective test. The GP system was fairer by the time it was introduced , but I can’t help feeling even that has now run its course.

 

...if it had been introduced during the eighties Nielsen would have dominated the scene of which I have no doubt.

[steve roberts 9,242]

57 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...if it had been introduced during the eighties Nielsen would have dominated the scene of which I have no doubt.

...and if the one off Final had still been in operation would Mark Loram have become World Champion in 2000? All pure conjecture, of course. and personally I always find it difficult comparing eras (whatever the sport) as the world was a different place back then with many differing criteria especailly when attempting to analyse sporting achievements and/or events and/or circumstances.

[fatface 2,549]

2 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

I think not a different era a different challenge believe it or not we are all entitled to maybe have a different opinion.? 

Jeez. This kicked off. Again!

We are all biased to some degree, the difficulty is being able to put that natural bias aside in order to be rational. I'd love to say that Chris Morton is the greatest rider ever but I cannot credibly back that up. 

Thing is, if your starting position for a discussion is personal preference and prejudice and not facts and evidence, you always going to struggle when challenged.

 

[norbold 7,101]

2 hours ago, E I Addio said:

I agree with that, but the more intriguing question is whether Mauger would have won six world titles if Knutson had carried on riding or indeed if Harrfeldt had not suffered his serious injuries. Both were closer to Maugers age than Briggs , Moore or Fundin who were all slightly past their best when Mauger was reaching his peak. Harrfeldt’s record certainly proved he had the talent to take a one off title but I can’t help feeling that Knutssons best was still to come.

Yes, I certainly agree about Knutson. Being a West Ham supporter, I had the great fortune of seeing Knutson and Harrfeldt week in and week out. I would definitely agree that Knutson would certainly have given Mauger a run for his money. He was class personified. They always say it was his nerves that got the better of him on the big occasion and that was why he didn't win more world titles. Not sure how true that is, but I expect that after winning once and proved himself he would have gone on to dominate the sport in the late 60s and maybe into the 70s.

Harrfeldt, I'm not so sure about. Yes, he was a great rider, as his 2nd place in 1966 showed, and he may have gone on to win a world title, but I don't think he was quite in the Fundin, Briggs, Knutson, Mauger class.

[Garry1603 353]

On 4/17/2020 at 10:14 AM, steve roberts said:

I remember reading John Berry's comparison between Peter Collins and Chris Morton. He always thought that both could give opponents a head start at Hyde Road and overcome their lack of gating prowess but he did think that Peter could gate if he put his mind to it at tracks that were less complimentary whereas he felt Chris lacked that ability having to rely more than Peter on his ability to pass opponents. Apparently that was one reason when England boss he went with the inexperienced Kelvin Tatum rather than Chris during the World Pairs in 1985.

PC could certainly gate when it came down to it - the World Final in 1977 when he rode with a broken leg and couldn't get on and off his bike, and also many times at Coventry in the British Final (where common perception was that it wouldn't suit PC as it was primarily a gaters paradise)

[steve roberts 9,242]

17 minutes ago, Garry1603 said:

PC could certainly gate when it came down to it - the World Final in 1977 when he rode with a broken leg and couldn't get on and off his bike, and also many times at Coventry in the British Final (where common perception was that it wouldn't suit PC as it was primarily a gaters paradise)

...and of course there were the occasions at Wembley in 1973 when he out-gated that master from the tapes Anders Michanek one, of which, resulted in an exclusion for Michanek which was debatable in my view.

Edited April 18, 2020 by steve roberts

[Garry1603 353]

1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

...and if the one off Final had still been in operation would Mark Loram have become World Champion in 2000? All pure conjecture, of course. and personally I always find it difficult comparing eras (whatever the sport) as the world was a different place back then with many differing criteria especailly when attempting to analyse sporting achievements and/or events and/or circumstances.

I agree, it's impossible to compare different eras in pretty much all sports (the perennial who was better Pele or Messi, Sampras or Federer, Bradman or Richards etc etc). You actually CAN'T compare as they were the best they could be in their own era and that comes down to ability, mentality, coaching, support, fitness and motivation. If Bradman were around today, would he be any good?..... yes of course he would because he had the mentality and the other attributes to MAKE himself good.

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Garry1603