steve roberts 9,241 Posted May 7, 2020 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: What a terrific record Nielsen had, Ivan though out of the six years he had a 11 plus average five times amazing really.Also one of those years he had his average reduced from 11.74 ( an exclusion maybe?).Also your point waiheke1 about the nominated race is so relevant, i wonder how many times Ivan had an easy heat 8 win with the old six point rule.Out of those stats given i was unsure what Briggs best years were? did he win his first two titles when really he was not always on top of his game his best stat years only yielded him one title. ...which is why I think that he would have dominated a GP series if it had been held during the eighties. Edited May 7, 2020 by steve roberts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted May 7, 2020 1 hour ago, steve roberts said: ...which is why I think that he would have dominated a GP series if it had been held during the eighties. No exaggeration Steve to say that Hans could of won 6/8 World titles as the two formats are like chalk and cheese.I also think Erik would of been good in that format as well and depending on the points scoring system would still of won titles.Penhall is the guy who COULD of changed history as he would of been very good in a series.A real shame when you look back that speedway was robbed of Jansson 1976( only 24). Penhall, Lee, Carter for different reasons all within ten years. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted May 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said: No exaggeration Steve to say that Hans could of won 6/8 World titles as the two formats are like chalk and cheese.I also think Erik would of been good in that format as well and depending on the points scoring system would still of won titles.Penhall is the guy who COULD of changed history as he would of been very good in a series.A real shame when you look back that speedway was robbed of Jansson 1976( only 24). Penhall, Lee, Carter for different reasons all within ten years. From late 82 to early 86 the sport prematurely lost Penhall, Sigalos, Sanders, Carter and effectively Lee. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,018 Posted May 7, 2020 4 hours ago, waiheke1 said: From late 82 to early 86 the sport prematurely lost Penhall, Sigalos, Sanders, Carter and effectively Lee. I know they weren't "premature" departures, but throw in Olsen, Autrey, and PC (the end of 86), and that was a really bad time for speedway as far as a loss of talent... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted May 7, 2020 20 hours ago, waiheke1 said: I think taking those stats only, you'd have to say Hans was the greatest. His average in 89 is equivalent to a high 11+ in other year's when you take into account the nominated rider's heat introduced that year. I'd agree with that. I can't think of many times a rider hit an 11pt average (including bonus of course) since the advent of the nominated heats. I've got: Ermolenko 1993 11.14 Crump 2006 11.21 Adams 2008 11.04 All three of those were extra remarkable for different reasons... Ermolenko didn't race any reserves. Crump and Adams also had the new 'Heat 13' race as well to contend with. In addition Adams achieved his in a 9 team league. Ermolenko and Crump 11 teams. The size of the league also bolsters Nielsens argument, his sensational 1986 season was achieved in an 11 team league. Mauger's averages were all from 18-19 team leagues I believe... same with Briggs? Fundin however clocked up an 11.60 in a 10 team league in 1958. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chadster 221 Posted May 7, 2020 1 hour ago, BWitcher said: Mauger's averages were all from 18-19 team leagues I believe... same with Briggs? Fundin however clocked up an 11.60 in a 10 team league in 1958. The BL was 18 teams in 1965 and 19 thereafter. Another think to consider would be the move to fixed gate positions. I can't remember when that was introduced, certainly when Nielsen was around. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,056 Posted May 7, 2020 22 hours ago, waiheke1 said: I think taking those stats only, you'd have to say Hans was the greatest. His average in 89 is equivalent to a high 11+ in other year's when you take into account the nominated rider's heat introduced that year. There was also a nominated riders' heat for some of Ove's time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,241 Posted May 7, 2020 55 minutes ago, Chadster said: The BL was 18 teams in 1965 and 19 thereafter. Another think to consider would be the move to fixed gate positions. I can't remember when that was introduced, certainly when Nielsen was around. I'm guessing that it was 1988? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted May 7, 2020 7 hours ago, waiheke1 said: From late 82 to early 86 the sport prematurely lost Penhall, Sigalos, Sanders, Carter and effectively Lee. I can never understand why people never mention Jansson ( only 24) he would of been at his peak at that time against those guys you mentioned. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,855 Posted May 7, 2020 26 minutes ago, steve roberts said: I'm guessing that it was 1988? No doubt you are right, but I thought it was much later. But just a bad hunch Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,018 Posted May 7, 2020 12 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: I can never understand why people never mention Jansson ( only 24) he would of been at his peak at that time against those guys you mentioned. Because, at the time of his tragic death, he still hadn't shown anything like true class at the very top level. Yes, he may well have done, and I think he probably WOULD have done, but as of May 1976, he was not one of the very top echelon (alongside Collins, Olsen, Mauger etc). And that is coming from a lifelong Dons fan, and a huge Tommy fan. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 7, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: I can never understand why people never mention Jansson ( only 24) he would of been at his peak at that time against those guys you mentioned. The late great Wimbledon star Sweden's Tommy Jansson. Edited May 7, 2020 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted May 7, 2020 (edited) 51 minutes ago, chunky said: Because, at the time of his tragic death, he still hadn't shown anything like true class at the very top level. Yes, he may well have done, and I think he probably WOULD have done, but as of May 1976, he was not one of the very top echelon (alongside Collins, Olsen, Mauger etc). And that is coming from a lifelong Dons fan, and a huge Tommy fan. Really Chunky are you for real !!!! he punched well above his weight at the top level up until 75/76.You would have to be a complete muppet to not consider that World Pairs!!!! he also won two nice individuals events in 75/ 76..Also my point was i was talking about when he died in 76 he was beginning to really get there.If he had not died he would of been approaching his prime with the riders that was mentioned. (I.e.) Penhall, Sigalos, Lee, Olsen, Nielsen, Gundersen.Chunky you need to think about what you are saying before trying to score points over certain people.Engage your brain are you saying up until when he died May 1976 Tommy had not shown anything at the very top level???? Edited May 7, 2020 by Sidney the robin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,855 Posted May 7, 2020 I am in between you guys. I am not sure if chunky saw Tommy much in 75/76 ? I thought it was Tommy's death that got him back into the sport. Not of course that you have to see a rider to make a judgement. But I do think he came back from Australia a much better rider, much improved. He seemed to have a confidence in him. But of course you look at Hans and even though he had the same confidence in the league or look at Leigh Adams as another example, it doesn't always mean they are going to be a world beater. It took Hans quite a few years until he eventually had the luck or mental strength to win a title. I have no doubt Tommy would have made it into the elite for a good period. I couldn't say he would definitely have won a title Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted May 7, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, iris123 said: I am in between you guys. I am not sure if chunky saw Tommy much in 75/76 ? I thought it was Tommy's death that got him back into the sport. Not of course that you have to see a rider to make a judgement. But I do think he came back from Australia a much better rider, much improved. He seemed to have a confidence in him. But of course you look at Hans and even though he had the same confidence in the league or look at Leigh Adams as another example, it doesn't always mean they are going to be a world beater. It took Hans quite a few years until he eventually had the luck or mental strength to win a title. I have no doubt Tommy would have made it into the elite for a good period. I couldn't say he would definitely have won a title Well your post is spot on and yes nobody is certain but i am certain from about 76/84 he would of been a force.What Chunky says is complete nonsense by 1976 he was world class also remember from 1970/76 all of those years were not complete years either( swedes ban, National service) Edited May 7, 2020 by Sidney the robin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites