Who Was The Best Rider From The Old Second Division?

[steve roberts 9,246]

...and by that I mean during in its formative years when it was introduced to nurture and develop British talent for the upper league and internationally before it became a different animal and broke away from tradition.

Peter Collins - World Champion and many other FIM medals, British Champion and BLRC Champion (when it meant something) and many domestic honours individually and team.

John Louis - Bronze Medal in the Individual World Final as well as many other FIM medals, British and BLRC Champion and many domestic honours especailly when skipper of the "Witches"

MIchael Lee - World Chanpion and many other FIM Medals including Longtrack Champion and British Champion.

Dave Jessup - World runner-up and many othe FIM Medals and British Champion and domestic honours.

Gordon Kennett - World runner - up and World Pairs Champion and domestic honours.

Chris Morton - British and BLRC Champion and many FIM medals and domestic honours.

John Davis - FIM Medals and domestic honours.

Later came Simon Wigg (after the League had somewhat changed direction and was no longer regarded as a 'training ground' for developing British talent necessarily)  - British Champion and FIM Medals plus five Longtrack wins and many domestic honours.

Plus the likes of Steve Bastable and Andy Grahame who both won British Championships and domestic honours plus Les Collins (World runner - up and BLRC Champion)

My order would be Collins, Louis, Lee, Jessup, Morton, Kennett and Davis ignoring the claims of others outside the remit of the old Division Two.

Edited April 18, 2020 by steve roberts

[The White Knight 9,039]

I think one Rider who could be in with the best of the Riders you mention would be Joe Owen.

[Garry1603 353]

9 hours ago, steve roberts said:

My order would be Collins, Louis, Lee, Jessup, Morton, Kennett and Davis ignoring the claims of others outside the remit of the old Division Two.

I would certainly agree with that - might have Dave Morton in there instead of Davis, but to be fair injuries prevented him from achieving his true potential. Might also swap Lee and Louis over as well, but that's nit picking!

[Wessex Wanderer 148]

Got to be Peter Collins. I am not going any further although I am tempted to put John Louis second. . I understand about excluding riders from the later years but if we didn’t I would have Simon Wigg challenging Peter. 
 

surprised Phil Crump has not been mentioned. He was sensational when he first hit these shores. 
 

another great thread. Thanks for starting it. 
 

[Garry1603 353]

26 minutes ago, Wessex Wanderer said:

Got to be Peter Collins. I am not going any further although I am tempted to put John Louis second. . I understand about excluding riders from the later years but if we didn’t I would have Simon Wigg challenging Peter. 
 

surprised Phil Crump has not been mentioned. He was sensational when he first hit these shores. 
 

another great thread. Thanks for starting it. 
 

You're absolutely right, I just took it that we were talking about British riders, but if not Crumpie senior is definitely in there.

[steve roberts 9,246]

2 hours ago, The White Knight said:

I think one Rider who could be in with the best of the Riders you mention would be Joe Owen.

Joe had two outstanding seasons at Newcastle in 1975 & & 76 and admitted in an interview some years ago that perhaps his move to Hull (another Ian Thomas track) wasn't perhaps the smartest thing. He suffered terrible injuries (1978?) at the Boulevard on a track that wasn't to everybody's liking (especially John Berry!) and perhaps if he had gone to a different track he may well have gone further in the upper league rather than returning to the Natinal League where he again dominated...but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[chunky 6,091]

Just like to add something for information purposes...

Other than the riders already mentioned, the only other rider from pre-1978 Div 2/NL to qualify for a World Final (main 16) was Doug Wyer.  Steve Bastable and Tony Lomas both qualified as reserve, but neither got a ride, and neither did Andy Grahame. It took a few years, but Alan Grahame did get a couple of rides as a reserve in 1984.

The next rider to start in the second tier and go on to ride in a World Final was Kenny Carter, with Mitch Shirra coming later.

Norden in 1983 actually saw five such riders - Shirra, Lee, Morton, Carter, and Phil Collins - all qualify. In addition to Alan Grahame, 1984 saw Wigg getting in on the action.

Simon Cross was next, then Troy Butler in 89, and Todd Wiltshire, Martin Dugard, and Richard Knight all appearing at Bradford a year later.

Paul Thorp, Gary Havelock, Leigh Adams, and Chris Louis followed, and Marvyn Cox and Craig Boyce were the last two.

There, we have a complete list of riders who started out in the second tier (from 1968 and beyond) who qualified for World Finals.

[steve roberts 9,246]

3 minutes ago, chunky said:

Just like to add something for information purposes...

Other than the riders already mentioned, the only other rider from pre-1978 Div 2/NL to qualify for a World Final (main 16) was Doug Wyer.  Steve Bastable and Tony Lomas both qualified as reserve, but neither got a ride, and neither did Andy Grahame. It took a few years, but Alan Grahame did get a couple of rides as a reserve in 1984.

The next rider to start in the second tier and go on to ride in a World Final was Kenny Carter, with Mitch Shirra coming later.

Norden in 1983 actually saw five such riders - Shirra, Lee, Morton, Carter, and Phil Collins - all qualify. In addition to Alan Grahame, 1984 saw Wigg getting in on the action.

Simon Cross was next, then Troy Butler in 89, and Todd Wiltshire, Martin Dugard, and Richard Knight all appearing at Bradford a year later.

Paul Thorp, Gary Havelock, Leigh Adams, and Chris Louis followed, and Marvyn Cox and Craig Boyce were the last two.

There, we have a complete list of riders who started out in the second tier (from 1968 and beyond) who qualified for World Finals.

If I recall Andy didn't even bother going to Munich (1989) but I may be incorrect.

[steve roberts 9,246]

1 hour ago, Wessex Wanderer said:

Got to be Peter Collins. I am not going any further although I am tempted to put John Louis second. . I understand about excluding riders from the later years but if we didn’t I would have Simon Wigg challenging Peter. 
 

surprised Phil Crump has not been mentioned. He was sensational when he first hit these shores. 
 

another great thread. Thanks for starting it. 
 

I was forgetting Phil Crump (albeit an Aussie) A Bronze Individual medal and an FIM Team Medal for Australia plus many national and domestic honours...good call!

[steve roberts 9,246]

1 hour ago, Garry1603 said:

You're absolutely right, I just took it that we were talking about British riders, but if not Crumpie senior is definitely in there.

My initial post quoted British talent but it has to be said that quite a few Anzacs also benefited from the arrangement during the early years and certainly much later (Adams, Wiltshire, Boyce immediately come to mind who claimed FIM medals on behalf of Australia) when the league took a different route.

Edited April 18, 2020 by steve roberts