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On 5/14/2020 at 11:42 AM, mikebv said:

Can't remember the stat, but didnt he only lose something like three races all season at Hyde Rd?

1969..Belle Vue..37..158..456..5..11.67..22F..3P

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1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

A crying shame that Eastbourne didn't achieve any success with such an outstanding heat leader trio. Paul Woods gave good support but beyond that a very weak tail. Of course by the following season all three had left Arlington!

Thing is, it wasn't even the best trio in the league. The strongest heat leader trio (Penhall, Gundersen, Grahame) backed up by a genuine fourth heat leader and quality second string (Collins and King). Their reserves were as rubbish as Eastbornes.  Belle Vue were more classically built, with the 2nd strongest trio in the league (Morton, Ross,Collins) and then two solid second strings and arguably the best reserves in the league.

You also had Ipswich and Coventry with similarly strong heat leaders, but much stronger support.

Of course the following season Eastborne had an equally weak tail, just without the heat leader trio! Only Woods (along with Courtney the most improved rider in 83?) and to a lesser extent  Eskildsten returning scores of any quality. 

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7 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Thing is, it wasn't even the best trio in the league. The strongest heat leader trio (Penhall, Gundersen, Grahame) backed up by a genuine fourth heat leader and quality second string (Collins and King). Their reserves were as rubbish as Eastbornes.  Belle Vue were more classically built, with the 2nd strongest trio in the league (Morton, Ross,Collins) and then two solid second strings and arguably the best reserves in the league.

You also had Ipswich and Coventry with similarly strong heat leaders, but much stronger support.

Of course the following season Eastborne had an equally weak tail, just without the heat leader trio! Only Woods (along with Courtney the most improved rider in 83?) and to a lesser extent  Eskildsten returning scores of any quality. 

Yes Cradley had by far the strongest heat leader trio based on averages but only Eastbourne challenged them with three heat leaders averaging nine plus. Belle Vue had Collins as a third heat leader on a strong eight plus average whereas both Ipswich and Coventry had third heat leaders on seven plus. But all these sides had better back up as you say  whereas Eastbourne carried a very long tail with three riders averaging three plus hence "The Eagles" final disappointing league position. As I said a missed opportunity in gaining some sort of success that year. When Ron Preston was interviewed in later years he stated how Eastbourne should have gained more that season.

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10 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

I think the GP series is EASIER to win if you are the best rider in the world (maybe even top 2) because it reduces elements of luck, or the impact of one bad ride.

For anyone else, the one off world final was easier to win, as it required doing just enough to get through qualifying rounds, then 5 good rides on the big night.

 

Fair comments and there are many examples of riders who were looked upon as a potential favourite in lifting the crown during a one-off World Final but one bad ride/crash/exclusion/engine failure eluded them...Briggs, Collins, Olsen, Mauger, Michanek, Penhall, Gundersen, Jessup, Carter, Nielsen, Knudsen etc. (off the top of my head!) The two systems require different approaches and personally I find it difficult comparing one with the other. Like any GP system it involves a steady level of performance over a period of time (which occasionally involves highs as well as lows) whereas one-off events require a sudden input which can occasionally catch out the unwary thru' all manner or reasons and requires a strong mental approach which is perhaps why so many good riders failed in becoming World Champion down the years?

Put very simply one's a marathon the other a sprint! There was a very interesting comparison made in an edition of "Backtrack" many years ago now where Tony MacDonald and John Berry shared views...and not always agreeing  with their analysis.

I'm convinced that if the GP's had run during the eighties Nielsen would have won at least six but one-off finals obviously produced a different scenario whereby he had to contend with Gundersen, in particular, requiring him to win at all costs whereas a GP he would have been able to have paced himself better. Just my opinion.

Edited by steve roberts
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Nielsen was the best rider in the world from 83-89. I don't think he would have won every year under a gp system, but i reckon maybe 5 of those with Eric winning a couple - maybe 84 & 85. He would have lifted himself for GPs.

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3 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Fair comments and there are many examples of riders who were looked upon as a potential favourite in lifting the crown during a one-off World Final but one bad ride/crash/exclusion/engine failure eluded them...Briggs, Collins, Olsen, Mauger, Michanek, Penhall, Gundersen, Jessup, Carter, Nielsen, Knudsen etc. (off the top of my head!) The two systems require different approaches and personally I find it difficult comparing one with the other. Like any GP system it involves a steady level of performance over a period of time (which occasionally involves highs as well as lows) whereas one-off events require a sudden input which can occasionally catch out the unwary thru' all manner or reasons and requires a strong mental approach which is perhaps why so many good riders failed in becoming World Champion down the years?

Put very simply one's a marathon the other a sprint! There was a very interesting comparison made in an edition of "Backtrack" many years ago now where Tony MacDonald and John Berry shared views...and not always agreeing  with their analysis.

I'm convinced that if the GP's had run during the eighties Nielsen would have won at least six but one-off finals obviously produced a different scenario whereby he had to contend with Gundersen, in particular, requiring him to win at all costs whereas a GP he would have been able to have paced himself better. Just my opinion.

I think that for a while Nielsen knew he was the best in the world and it got to him. He over-rode in a few finals and it cost him. He was even guilty of it when winning his first title and was lucky to get away with it.

I think a GP would have enabled him to settle a but, although Gundersen might have been the master of the GP when they had the KO system instead of regular heats.

It's weird to say it for a 4 time World Champion, but I think he under achieved. I've never seen a rider anywhere near as good a Nielsen. He should have been the undisputed greatest of all time.

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21 minutes ago, Grachan said:

I think that for a while Nielsen knew he was the best in the world and it got to him. He over-rode in a few finals and it cost him. He was even guilty of it when winning his first title and was lucky to get away with it.

I think a GP would have enabled him to settle a but, although Gundersen might have been the master of the GP when they had the KO system instead of regular heats.

It's weird to say it for a 4 time World Champion, but I think he under achieved. I've never seen a rider anywhere near as good a Nielsen. He should have been the undisputed greatest of all time.

Some fair comments there. Interesting to think that he could so easily have won another four or so titles but it says something of the man that he was at the very top of his game but missed out on occasions which goes back to my earlier observation that one-off finals weren't necessarily easier to win than a GP series....in my opinion! As riders go I list Nielsen as the second best rider of all time (behind Mauger) based on an incredible domestic & international record over twenty years...but I would say that!

Edited by steve roberts
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2 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Nielsen was the best rider in the world from 83-89. I don't think he would have won every year under a gp system, but i reckon maybe 5 of those with Eric winning a couple - maybe 84 & 85. He would have lifted himself for GPs.

Gustix what part of this post has prompted you to "laugh"? Or are you just determined to be a dick on every thread?

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3 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Gustix what part of this post has prompted you to "laugh"? Or are you just determined to be a dick on every thread?

My money is on B

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14 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

My money is on B

Sadly, mine too.

There are some posters on here who lose the plot occasionally, and come back after a couple of days to opologise and all is good.  Others who could start an argument in an empty room, and wouldn't stop until the walls had agreed with them. Others who are wind up merchants, who spit the dummy now and then and take off to Rome, or go back to their parent's basement to think about their plastic girlfriend in Leicester who ran off with their best mate. Others who are bigots, plain and simple.  But all of the above add some kind of value to the forum, and contribute to the place of varied viewpoints it is.

Then there is one poster, who could contribute a lot, but instead seems determined to prove that he is not just a cockwomble, but is determined to scale new heights of cockwomblery...

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20 hours ago, Grachan said:

I think that for a while Nielsen knew he was the best in the world and it got to him. He over-rode in a few finals and it cost him. He was even guilty of it when winning his first title and was lucky to get away with it.

I think a GP would have enabled him to settle a but, although Gundersen might have been the master of the GP when they had the KO system instead of regular heats.

It's weird to say it for a 4 time World Champion, but I think he under achieved. I've never seen a rider anywhere near as good a Nielsen. He should have been the undisputed greatest of all time.

Great post Grachan his final efforts in 1980/ 81/ 82  left alot to be desired and my opinion of him then would be that he would always come up short.How wrong was i as usual his move to Oxford did the trick he had a couple of years that he made mistakes in Finals and in 1986 he was lucky in the Knudsen incident but he got there.Hans reminds me of Jason in that respect he hung on in there and once he got his first title ( which is the hardest) he moved on to the second.Cerainly in the top five riders of alltime for hard to know where to place him but the frightening thing was he could of won 7/8 titles great rider also did not always get the backing of Ole along the way.

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20 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Great post Grachan his final efforts in 1980/ 81/ 82  left alot to be desired and my opinion of him then would be that he would always come up short.How wrong was i as usual his move to Oxford did the trick he had a couple of years that he made mistakes in Finals and in 1986 he was lucky in the Knudsen incident but he got there.Hans reminds me of Jason in that respect he hung on in there and once he got his first title ( which is the hardest) he moved on to the second.Cerainly in the top five riders of alltime for hard to know where to place him but the frightening thing was he could of won 7/8 titles great rider also did not always get the backing of Ole along the way.

...I'm spitting at the mere mention of his name Sid!

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4 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...I'm spitting at the mere mention of his name Sid!

Strange that Steve, he helped Hans alot early on his career then there were problems later on.Olsen is still  one of the greatest riders i have ever  seen but looking back it is amazing the success the Danes had.Mainly because  i don't always think the atmosphere in the camp was always the greatest maybe i am wrong on that score.?

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3 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Strange that Steve, he helped Hans alot early on his career then there were problems later on.Olsen is still  one of the greatest riders i have ever  seen but looking back it is amazing the success the Danes had.Mainly because  i don't always think the atmosphere in the camp was always the greatest maybe i am wrong on that score.?

you can live with a bad atmosphere when you have clearly the top 2 riders in the world, plus two others in the top ten, in your team ;-)

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1 minute ago, waiheke1 said:

you can live with a bad atmosphere when you have clearly the top 2 riders in the world, plus two others in the top ten, in your team ;-)

Good point but you have to say the Americans had team spirit  in abundance.Just thought the Nielsen/ Gundersen saga was unnecessary and Olsen should of been impartial and he should of helped both.Maybe Hans  showed him that he had his own ideas and mind and said so glad  Hans/Erik get along i think they always did the respect for each other was immense.

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