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iris123

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Interesting comments BL65, George was the first real top star of the Prov. League that I saw, for Monarchs when they visited Newport in 1964-very impressive. Wondered if he could ever make a World Final, but never seem to do well in big qualifying memories e.g. the 1966 European Final at Wembley-nerves maybe or motivation  or just not good enough at big occasions. However being involved in the fatal Peter Craven crash didn't seem to affect his later riding as it might have for some other riders.

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1 hour ago, BOBBATH said:

Interesting comments BL65, George was the first real top star of the Prov. League that I saw, for Monarchs when they visited Newport in 1964-very impressive. Wondered if he could ever make a World Final, but never seem to do well in big qualifying memories e.g. the 1966 European Final at Wembley-nerves maybe or motivation  or just not good enough at big occasions. However being involved in the fatal Peter Craven crash didn't seem to affect his later riding as it might have for some other riders.

George definitely was a Top Man in 1965 ,and should have went further in the sport IMo.He walked out of a  Wet meeting at Meadowbank in 65 and then seemed to take a dislike to wet meetings.Think the Craven situation was always at the back of his mind,and nerves seemed to affect him on the big occasion.He was a class act and a fantastic style and team rider.He had a good career in the sport if somewhat underachieving.A good guy.

Edited by Fromafar
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5 hours ago, Fromafar said:

George definitely was a Top Man in 1965 ,and should have went further in the sport IMo.He walked out of a  Wet meeting at Meadowbank in 65 and then seemed to take a dislike to wet meetings.Think the Craven situation was always at the back of his mind,and nerves seemed to affect him on the big occasion.He was a class act and a fantastic style and team rider.He had a good career in the sport if somewhat underachieving.A good guy.

George was a brilliant skipper during his twilight years at Oxford in 1978 & 79. His team riding skills were beyond question and he could dictate a race to perfection. Remember a classic second half final when he and Mike Sampson put in some tremendous laps passing and re-passing each other.

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As a New Cross supporter, I didn't see many Provincial League riders in its early days, 1960/61, but I did see some in Individual meetings and in second halves. Purely from memory, without resorting to record books, I seem to remember that I thought Trevor Redmond and Ivor Brown were head and shoulders above the rest of the riders I saw and were the only two I felt at the time could hold their own in the National League. Of course that is purely a subjective view of a young speedway novice (me) and without seeing all of the top riders.
 

i'd be interested in hearing Provincial League aficionados from that period's views on Redmond and Brown.

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7 hours ago, Fromafar said:

He walked out of a  Wet meeting at Meadowbank in 65 and then seemed to take a dislike to wet meetings.

George walked out of the meeting against Coventry on 7th August 1965 after one ride, complaining about the state of the track.  Ian Hoskins was not best pleased.  Hunter threatened he would walk out again if improvements were not made. Hoskins wrote a strongly-worded letter to him and George turned up to ride the following week, but the track had been extensively worked on and bladed during the week by former Monarch Dick Campbell.  Ironically, the meeting against Swindon was rained off.  Having escaped further action by the Control Board for his walk-out Hunter was then suspended for 21 days for failing to appear at Coventry and Exeter on 11th and 13th September.  Edinburgh were able to use a guest to replace George for the home meeting with Belle Vue and so booked Ivan Mauger, although he only scored 9.  If the suspension had started with effect from 14th September then Hunter would have been banned until 4th October, but he appealed and was allowed to defend his Scottish Open title on 2nd October, finishing runner-up to Arne Pander, with Mauger third.

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16 minutes ago, BL65 said:

George walked out of the meeting against Coventry on 7th August 1965 after one ride, complaining about the state of the track.  Ian Hoskins was not best pleased.  Hunter threatened he would walk out again if improvements were not made. Hoskins wrote a strongly-worded letter to him and George turned up to ride the following week, but the track had been extensively worked on and bladed during the week by former Monarch Dick Campbell.  Ironically, the meeting against Swindon was rained off.  Having escaped further action by the Control Board for his walk-out Hunter was then suspended for 21 days for failing to appear at Coventry and Exeter on 11th and 13th September.  Edinburgh were able to use a guest to replace George for the home meeting with Belle Vue and so booked Ivan Mauger, although he only scored 9.  If the suspension had started with effect from 14th September then Hunter would have been banned until 4th October, but he appealed and was allowed to defend his Scottish Open title on 2nd October, finishing runner-up to Arne Pander, with Mauger third.

He was my first hero in speedway, he was certainly the fans favourite in his rise to the top with the Monarchs.He certainly stalled after ‘65.and  Persson and Eide became the top dogs.Had a good career.Definitely had the skills to reach the top but it just never happened.Drove his Uncles cattle lorry In between meetings while still persueing  his Monarchs career.

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1 hour ago, norbold said:

i'd be interested in hearing Provincial League aficionados from that period's views on Redmond and Brown.

Trevor Redmond was top PL man in 1960, but his average with Wembley in Division 1 in 1956 was only just over 6.00 and in 1959 with Swindon it was below 4.00.  Reg Reeves, the next best rider, had not ridden league speedway since 1955, when he was an 8-point man with Division2 Ipswich.  Third best rider, Harry Bastable, averaged over 10.00, but had struggled with scores averaging around 4.00 in the previous two years at Leicester.

The other top PL riders in 1960 were Brian Craven, Alan Smith, Ross Gilbertson, Johnny Hole, Tony Lewis, Tony Robinson and Ivor Brown.  Gilbertson also rode a few matches that year for Southampton and averaged under 6.00.  The most recent scoring levels of the others in the top league were generally of reserve or second-string standard.  Brown had made sporadic appearances for Leicester between 1953 and 1958 with little success.  The regular rides at Yarmouth in 1959 and 1960 facilitated his rapid progress to becoming a dominant force at Cradley Heath from 1961 onwards.  In 1961 he had a league average of 10.14, compared to Bastable’s 8.88. 

In comparison with other riders of that era it is perhaps unlikely that Redmond or Brown, even with a regular team slot, would have risen to heat leader standard in the National League in 1960/61.  The gap in standards certainly narrowed considerably over the next few years, which enabled the amalgamation of National and Provincial to form the British League in 1965 to be a success.

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2 hours ago, norbold said:

As a New Cross supporter, I didn't see many Provincial League riders in its early days, 1960/61, but I did see some in Individual meetings and in second halves. Purely from memory, without resorting to record books, I seem to remember that I thought Trevor Redmond and Ivor Brown were head and shoulders above the rest of the riders I saw and were the only two I felt at the time could hold their own in the National League. Of course that is purely a subjective view of a young speedway novice (me) and without seeing all of the top riders.
 

i'd be interested in hearing Provincial League aficionados from that period's views on Redmond and Brown.

I think the the situation was when the leagues  amalgamated  in 1965, the riders like Redmond and Brown and a few others who had been top men In  the Provincial League were “ getting on a bit”.The up and coming men were the “younger ones”likes of Hunter,Monk,Boocock,Pratt,Brett ,Wilson and Mauger to name a few who went on to better things.

Edited by Fromafar
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9 hours ago, BL65 said:



In comparison with other riders of that era it is perhaps unlikely that Redmond or Brown, even with a regular team slot, would have risen to heat leader standard in the National League in 1960/61. 

Thanks as always for your comprehensive and well researched reply, BL. Just to say I didn't mean they would be heat leader status, I did mean I thought they would be good enough for second string positions.

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3 hours ago, norbold said:

Thanks as always for your comprehensive and well researched reply, BL. Just to say I didn't mean they would be heat leader status, I did mean I thought they would be good enough for second string positions.

Ivor Brown was one of the top riders throughout the Provincial League era from 1960 to 1964, with league averages of 9.78, 10.14, 10.21, 10.30 and 10.39.  When the National and Provincial leagues amalgamated in 1965 he started the season in the same vein.  Up until his awful injury in the Internationale at Wimbledon on 7th June he had ridden in 6 league matches against the ex-Nationals (2 at home and 4 away) and 10 against the ex-Provincials (6 home, 4 away).  The former NL teams were generally ‘top-heavy’, with strong heat leaders and a weaker lower end of the team, whereas the former PL teams contained very few ex-NL heat leader standard riders and were more evenly balanced.  By 7th June, Ivor's league average against the former Nationals was 9.44 and against the former Provincials it was 10.04, with an overall figure of 9.83.  In the meetings against the ex-NL teams he had raced against Nigel Boocock, Mountford and Lightfoot at Coventry, Briggs, Broadbank and Ashby home and away against Swindon, How, Pander and Gooch at Oxford, McKinlay and Norman Hunter at West Ham, Maidment and McGregor at home to Belle Vue.  The ex-PL teams he rode against included Brian Brett (Newcastle), Bob Andrews (Wolverhampton) and Ronnie Genz (Poole).  This indicates that by the end of the PL era Ivor had become capable of delivering heat leader scores at the top level.  Although the commuting Swedes were not allowed to ride in the BL in 1965 it is unlikely that their presence would have diminished Brown’s scoring significantly across the season, given that teams met each other just once home and away, with number one riders only programmed to meet once.  Missing from 1964 were Soren Sjosten, Ove Fundin, Bjorn Knutson, Bengt Jansson and Gote Nordin.

Meanwhile, Trevor Redmond averaged just under 11 for Bristol in 1960, then maintained this level in a few meetings for Wolverhampton in 1961.  His average dipped a little over the next 3 years as he mixed promoting and riding, achieving 9.43 at Neath, then 8.50 at St Austell and 7.44 at Glasgow.  Trevor was aged 37 when the British League started, the same age as Ivor Brown.  If Trevor had focused only on riding there is no doubt he could have been competitive at the top level for a while longer.

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Mixing a bit of the original theme and where it had headed. Miller was replaced in the Coventry team by P.O.Söderman. Was he the first foreign rider in the lower league ? How and when were they allowed to ride, and when were they banned, as it was the 80s and Rye House that forced the door open again. So I guess maybe they weren't banned, it was just a promoters agreement ? 

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22 hours ago, iris123 said:

Mixing a bit of the original theme and where it had headed. Miller was replaced in the Coventry team by P.O.Söderman. Was he the first foreign rider in the lower league ? How and when were they allowed to ride, and when were they banned, as it was the 80s and Rye House that forced the door open again. So I guess maybe they weren't banned, it was just a promoters agreement ? 

Söderman was probably the first 'commuting' Scandinavian in the lower divisions.  Apart from the abundance of riders from Commonwealth countries and some from Ireland, a couple of instances of non UK born riders in the lower leagues come to mind.  Max Rech (born in Poland but resident in the UK as he didn’t return home after the war) rode in Division 2 for Fleetwood in 1950 and in Division 3 for St Austell from 1950 to 1952; Sandor Levai, who left his native Hungary during the 1956 uprising to live in the UK, rode for Stoke in 1963 in the Provincial League. 

The absence of commuting foreign riders in the lower leagues was most likely due to cost, not to mention the time involved in travel in the 1950s.  When the British League Division 2 was established in 1968 its original primary goal was to provide opportunities for new and upcoming riders, with several tracks operated by promoters who also had interests in Division One tracks. Over time perhaps the notion of opportunity and development of home grown talent gradually faded into the background as tracks felt the need to be competitive, successful and financially viable.  To paraphrase something Eric Linden wrote as the 1968 season ended, 'Division 2  tracks won't just keep finding, training and passing on their best talent to Division 1 tracks, they will attempt to hold on to their riders. Teams build up crowds by loyalty, to teams as well as to individuals. By moving on the top men you have the possibility of discontent.'  Although tracks may achieve a degree of competitiveness by taking the approach of spending on commuting riders, if the outcome is not success in terms of a trophy-winning team then financial viability is unlikely to be achieved.  The problem of engaging commuting foreigners and the costs that entails at any level is that if one track does it then others tend to do likewise so as not to be left behind. In the 1950s the introduction of a foreign rider brought an element of awe and wonder and probably boosted attendances, at least in the short term.  Increased attendances were reported at Brandon after Coventry brought in Söderman, but he was highly successful on track for them, which was hardly surprising as he finished 5th= with Briggs and McKinlay in the world final that year. 

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Great stuff, although I thought both Rech and Levai were naturalised. And tbh I thought Sandor rode in the National League rather than lower down. Thanks

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4 hours ago, iris123 said:

Great stuff, although I thought both Rech and Levai were naturalised. And tbh I thought Sandor rode in the National League rather than lower down. Thanks

Sandor rode in 13 meetings for Stoke in 1963, before joining Norwich in 1964.  Stoke closed at the end of 1963, Norwich closed at the end of 1964, so maybe Belle Vue fans were a bit nervous when he moved to Hyde Road in 1965.

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And don't lets forget Teo Teodorowicz

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