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HackneyHawk

Time to have an enquiry into the death of Speedway

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7 hours ago, HackneyHawk said:

It's great that the IOW presentation is good and that is a massive part of Speedway revival.  Is the presentation objectively good or just good for Speedway?  Are track staff smart? Are they polite? Are there weeds growing around the stadium?, is it tidy? Is it signposted?  Is the PA system good and is the parade good with a good introduction of the riders who are looking smart and engaged?

After presentation comes racing and I have attended probably 10 third tier meetings which have been generally poor.  As a speedway lover, any speedway is better than no speedway but to the newcomer, the very spread out races with some riders barely able to get the bike around the corner is not a sport, it's a hobby.

I think there are lessons from old Speedway (post war) that can be learned in that Speedway took itself very seriously and looked as though it respected itself.

As the crowd numbers dropped in the 70's the sport got scruffier and scruffier and looked as though it was a hobby for petrolheads.

On this thread we have had discussion of sidecar speedway being included in the meetings well sidecars are not the same sport and may provide amusement to people who are waiting for the team meeting to continue but Football doesn't rely on having a cricket match at half time!

I honestly think the racing in teams aspect is speedway's biggest hope.  As sport becomes more and more global, team identity is everything and motorcycle racing in teams could be massive, unfortunately Speedway cannot be trusted to take that opportunity

Speedway in years gone by had personalities and rivalries and these characters and behaviours have long since been banned by the the current establishment. Take a look through the history of the local derbies and for example the shenanigans that took place between Rayleigh, Eastbourne and Canterbury and then throw in the big fuel debate between Rayleigh and Eastbourne, leaping Len entertaining from the Centre Green, Johnnie Hoskins, Dave Lanning kicking verbal wotsit out of each other plus the Romford Bombers in the Essex Gold cup and speedway had a great mix of rivalry with some entertainment thrown into the mix. The same scenario applied to other teams around the country. You had riders who were personalities with the likes of Arthur Price, the Kennett brothers, Ted Hubbard, Brian Foote, Lou Swanson, Peter Moore, and these were in the lower divisions. Move up a league and you had the greats such as Olsen, Mauger, Briggs, etc to name but a few. In the second division added those at number six and seven who were invariably ex grass track and starting off were probably the equivalent standard of riders plying their trade at the IOW and Mildenhall. The sport was entertaining albeit the racing was no more spectacular but these were guys using effectively standard bikes or the track spare who honed their riding skills. Now you have a sanitised watered down form of entertainment that is no longer a raw sport where you support the guy next door who was giving it a go. Today you have the gate and go merchant who throws more money at the equipment then that are likely to earn hence the need for sponsors and treats the punter with contempt, most have zero in terms of personality, little in the way of team rivalry and the belief that as a sport it owes them a living. Professional some may be but as entertainers few make the grade until you move down to the third tier where the riders are willing to give it a go irrespective of the conditions and most of them do it because they want to prove themselves and enjoy riding. Without sponsors those in the upper echelons cannot make a living and is financially unviable hence the sport is now at a crossroads in this country. The third tier will be here long after some of the others have fallen by the wayside. 

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I actually think that an amalgam of the 2nd and 3rd divisions could be the way forward for the sport..

Whether it will attract many overseas riders I am not sure given the money on offer will need to be relative to the standard of rider....

But, for British Speedway, and the oportunities it would create for British riders, and their development, it might not be a bad thing..

It would also mean a fixture list being driven by customer availability, and run to a timetable when they can get there, and not when riders can get there when it suits their global agenda..

My team get decent crowds for 3rd tier Speedway and if a team made up of 2nd/3rd Div riders was the only team they had to watch, I would suggest crowds would be pretty much on a par that the 'first team' get now..

And much cheaper to run obviously..

UK Speedway is pretty much down to its die hards who go and watch 'any speedway', and hardly any 'crowd puling top names' ride here so there is a minimal amount of fans who only go to the see 'the names'...

And when (if) this bloody pandemic ever finishes, every sport should get a 'bounce boost' at the turnstiles when it returns. .

So, if there ever was a time to restructure from the bottom up to build a better future then surely it is now?

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44 minutes ago, mikebv said:

I actually think that an amalgam of the 2nd and 3rd divisions could be the way forward for the sport..

Whether it will attract many overseas riders I am not sure given the money on offer will need to be relative to the standard of rider....

But, for British Speedway, and the oportunities it would create for British riders, and their development, it might not be a bad thing..

It would also mean a fixture list being driven by customer availability, and run to a timetable when they can get there, and not when riders can get there when it suits their global agenda..

My team get decent crowds for 3rd tier Speedway and if a team made up of 2nd/3rd Div riders was the only team they had to watch, I would suggest crowds would be pretty much on a par that the 'first team' get now..

And much cheaper to run obviously..

UK Speedway is pretty much down to its die hards who go and watch 'any speedway', and hardly any 'crowd puling top names' ride here so there is a minimal amount of fans who only go to the see 'the names'...

And when (if) this bloody pandemic ever finishes, every sport should get a 'bounce boost' at the turnstiles when it returns. .

So, if there ever was a time to restructure from the bottom up to build a better future then surely it is now?

The bounce might not happen, if admission prices are at their current rate. We are in a world wide recession and the cost to the public has to reflect this.

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2 minutes ago, cityrebel said:

The bounce might not happen, if admission prices are at their current rate. We are in a world wide recession and the cost to the public has to reflect this.

Agreed, but if a lower grade of rider on offer, and no flight costs, hotel bills, van hire, uk mechanic, etc etc etc, to be factored in by the rider when he is negotiating points money, then maybe the entry price point will drop commensurately?

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As I’ve said elsewhere, a big issue here is that we insist on running the leagues to a higher standard than the riders that are available. If we cut cloth to measure people would complain that the product is being “watered down.” The other excuse is that there “aren’t enough riders.” There are enough riders, just not enough willing to ride here who are of the unrealistic standard British Speedway is trying to run at. 

Look at the top tier teams due to race this season. Realistically I would say there are five riders we would definitely lose from that league should we cut our cloth to measure. Ironically they’re five who don’t need to double down to make the sport pay, Doyle, Pedersen, Iversen, B. Kurtz and Kildemand. 

The main issue I guess is that landlords are still going to want the same rent from their tenants whether the sport is part time or not. However without so much money going out on wages it wouldn’t be an insurmountable hurdle. 

The die hards will attend whatever is served up. They’re pretty much all we have left in terms of boots on the ground in stadiums anyway, so to suggest a league of a more realistic standard wouldn’t work due to fan numbers is a lazy excuse. 

It wouldn’t be that hard to reset Speedway on a better path here but nobody is seemingly interested in doing so. To do so we need to take a step back, instead we keep trying to build a palace on the sand. But at least each Premiership track would have got to see Nicki Pedersen twice across the year eh. 

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20 minutes ago, Ben91 said:

The die hards will attend whatever is served up. They’re pretty much all we have left in terms of boots on the ground in stadiums anyway, so to suggest a league of a more realistic standard wouldn’t work due to fan numbers is a lazy excuse. 

Yet again complete and utterly inaccurate generalisation.

Go ready what Barry Bishop has said.

Go to places like I did last season like Swindon, Birmingham, Eastbourne, Redcar, Somerset. There are others i'm sure

Lots of kids, lots of things organised for kids, lots of new faces and families being welcomed.

The old timers who are in denial are the ones perversely most likely to moan about the kids. A new family appeared next to me at PB last summer, well behaved and friendly and excited, some die-hards moaned as they had to move a few feet from the "place I've stood for years". It was embarrassing and undoes what some Promoters are actually doing.

 

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28 minutes ago, HGould said:

Yet again complete and utterly inaccurate generalisation.

Go ready what Barry Bishop has said.

Go to places like I did last season like Swindon, Birmingham, Eastbourne, Redcar, Somerset. There are others i'm sure

Lots of kids, lots of things organised for kids, lots of new faces and families being welcomed.

The old timers who are in denial are the ones perversely most likely to moan about the kids. A new family appeared next to me at PB last summer, well behaved and friendly and excited, some die-hards moaned as they had to move a few feet from the "place I've stood for years". It was embarrassing and undoes what some Promoters are actually doing.

 

It isn’t. In a few places there may be proactive promotions. Note that of the five teams you have listed three are relatively new promotional teams. The IOW have always had to make hay with holiday crowds too, although granted their new promotion are doing a great job undeniably and we need more promotions like theirs. 

I’d suggest you read Barry’s post again also and read what he is actually saying.

Proactively promoting is all well and good. The product on track is an incredible one, that is why we all love the sport. But the way the sport is run overall it is tantamount to polishing a turd. 

People complaining about having to shuffle along a few steps on the terracing will be an issue as long as there’s terracing and isn’t anything to do with Speedway or old timers. It’s an inherent part of any sport where there is terracing or unreserved seating and people who like to watch from the same spot week in, week out. 

Edited by Ben91
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20 hours ago, barrybishop said:

It's very interesting to read this because we are fortunate to have many holiday people who come to the speedway perhaps for the first time on the island.... I of course when I welcome everyone, just after 13 mascots of differing ages 7 - 24 have ridden but before the parade, ask the crowd "who is on holiday" to see the hands and shouts... why do it do that because these are a target for me and my team to try to engage with and get them out on the centre green to find out the where you from, have you been to speedway, blah blah. Not to promote the Island but our sport in general (and don’t think for one minute we leave our or visiting fans out of the extra fun treatment).

Once I know the answer to my questions above, I always tell them what local to them and where to find it. And the resounding thing that I see time and time again in emails, Facebook messages or posts is that what they see when they go locally isn't half the fun or as entertaining as their experienced with 3rd tier Isle of Wight Warriors. Even more interesting I hear time and time again (and you will again see it written all over) is those who go to speedway but come to us because they are on holiday, want their promotion team to be more like us, our show, our fun packed family night out where we focus more on entertainment than the result, value over speed, a positive note rather than anything else. This why you will read the "Isle of Wight is the blueprint of speedway's future" and other comments all over social media....not by me but by people who have visited us (I guess that’s why we have won so many awards both in and out of speedway) and even more interestingly why clubs, far wealthier than us - (I know we are the poorest club financially in the sport), copy our ideas by the time I have shaken the last visitors hand or switched off the pits lights on the race day we first do it.

So, sorry I don’t agree that we have a poor product, we have probably the best product for today’s environment, the best show in speedway, brilliant racing but most of all a very happy, satisfied and entertained crowd who want to come back or visit their local tracks which ultimately, sadly, disappoint.

I can't comment directly as I've never been to the Speedway on the IOW, but I would suggest, with respect, that running a track on a "holiday" Island is quite a bit different than running a track elsewhere in the country. I would suggest the crowd are looking for different things at IOW, yes a great fun night out but when they return home and go to their local track and look to continue they will soon be looking into the performance of the team and the results on track as they become a "fan" of the team. That's not to say that for one minute the IOW are doing anything wrong and there's no reason to suggest that there couldn't be some overlap between what the IOW are doing and the rest as IOW certainly seem to be getting the basics right and a lot of other clubs should listen to the comments you have made above and further on.

I suppose the question is are you running a fun entertainment night out or a professional team sport competition and there's absolutely no reason why it shouldn't be both

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1 hour ago, iainb said:

I suppose the question is are you running a fun entertainment night out or a professional team sport competition and there's absolutely no reason why it shouldn't be both

I think that is the sports dilemma (over here)..

The IOW seem to promote EVERY meeting as if it was a one off event, which with some of their fans on holiday it very well could be their only chance to impress them..

And for their regulars 'something different' regularly will keep it fresh..

Team success (as in winning the league) almost appears secondary to the success of providing their customer base a 'great night out' and given the lack of kudos and financial reward for winning any UK competition, I would suggest it's a very good operating model..

UK Team Speedway is basically a busted flush if you measure success by the numbers who attend, with many who have fallen away over the years basically giving up on the concept, hence no longer bother attending..

(But often still remain as very interested followers of the sport in their several thousands)..

Therefore it's dilemma is can it run itself successfully as a 'Team Sport' concept (and bring back some of the lapsed thousands), or does it need to do 'something different'?

The old adages though of "always doing what you've always done will only deliver what you've always had" and the definition of insanity being "doing the same thing over and over again and each time expecting a different result" is something that those who run the sport should have written large on their meeting room walls..

 

 

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The fact that people are looking at centre green shenanigans from the likes of Johnnie Hoskins, Dave Lanning and 'Leaping Len' says everything we need to know about the awful state we find ourselves in.

This is like 40, 50 years ago. The world has changed, times have changed. The benchmark is other professional sports, other forms of entertainment. 

I don't know the answer, but it doesn't lie in the past.

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Another issue is that many believe that league racing is the be all and end all when in fact the seven riders are self employed individuals chasing the money to earn a living and the concept of ‘team riding’ rarely crosses their minds. Yes they race under a team banner which helps promote themselves as riders but you might just as well be the ‘Tesco Seven’ riding at track near you. More of a circus then a serious league competition so why not structure racing around those elements. Have a set number of meetings at each track and riders can be drawn weekly or monthly so that they know where they should be. They race under the banner of an existing team name so you have for example Ipswich riders racing on the same night but at different tracks.  Add up all the points scored by the ‘team riders’ and you have the seasons champions. Something could be worked out but as it stands at the moment, we have no speedway apart from amateur individual meetings, the top riders that Speedway U.K. cannot afford so no point in structuring anything around overseas rider availability, you do not have an independent body running the sport and a awful lot of disillusioned supporters who may or may not return assuming that their track makes it through to when speedway can resume. This is the time to think outside the box and come up with something for 2021 that is as far removed as possible from what has been served up to date. 

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4 hours ago, mikebv said:

I think that is the sports dilemma (over here)..

The IOW seem to promote EVERY meeting as if it was a one off event, which with some of their fans on holiday it very well could be their only chance to impress them..

And for their regulars 'something different' regularly will keep it fresh..

Team success (as in winning the league) almost appears secondary to the success of providing their customer base a 'great night out' and given the lack of kudos and financial reward for winning any UK competition, I would suggest it's a very good operating model..

UK Team Speedway is basically a busted flush if you measure success by the numbers who attend, with many who have fallen away over the years basically giving up on the concept, hence no longer bother attending..

(But often still remain as very interested followers of the sport in their several thousands)..

Therefore it's dilemma is can it run itself successfully as a 'Team Sport' concept (and bring back some of the lapsed thousands), or does it need to do 'something different'?

The old adages though of "always doing what you've always done will only deliver what you've always had" and the definition of insanity being "doing the same thing over and over again and each time expecting a different result" is something that those who run the sport should have written large on their meeting room walls..

 

 

Didn't all the great promoters of the past treat every meeting like a one off event. If you can't big up the product you are trying to sell, what chance do you have. As an IOW regular, i would say that Barry's communication skills go down well with the punters. Keeping the fans involved is a big plus, especially when I'm making a mad dash for the 21.47 ferry. I always remember Johnnie Hoksins greeting every fan as he passed through the turnstiles at Canterbury. That's what you call customer care!

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Why isn't the Speedway 'World Cup' raced in pairs like league Speedway?

Riders are individuals who then have their scores added together thus removing the spectacle of seeing team mates line up on the start and racing for and with each other on the track......

I'll admit it.........I'm old..........I love a bit of team riding it's one of Speedway's biggest assets to me!

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4 minutes ago, HackneyHawk said:

Why isn't the Speedway 'World Cup' raced in pairs like league Speedway?

Riders are individuals who then have their scores added together thus removing the spectacle of seeing team mates line up on the start and racing for and with each other on the track......

I'll admit it.........I'm old..........I love a bit of team riding it's one of Speedway's biggest assets to me!

It is.

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41 minutes ago, HackneyHawk said:

Why isn't the Speedway 'World Cup' raced in pairs like league Speedway?

Riders are individuals who then have their scores added together thus removing the spectacle of seeing team mates line up on the start and racing for and with each other on the track......

I'll admit it.........I'm old..........I love a bit of team riding it's one of Speedway's biggest assets to me!

I’d personally like to see an actual World Cup. Run once every four years, with perhaps the Speedway of Nations style pairs event run every four years also and staggered so that there is a big international tournament every two years.

By a proper World Cup I mean the entire tournament staged in one country with groups and team meetings. It would take an innovative format but I’m sure something could be done if some thought was put into it. Although I appreciate the Poles would potentially clean up in any such event. 

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