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BOBBATH

Mauger and Grand Prix system

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17 hours ago, BOBBATH said:

Just going back a bit further- I reckon Ove Fundin would have dominated in the fifties and sixties under a GP system- how do you reckon he would have stacked up re Moore, Briggo and Craven under such a system. Do you in fact think those three could ever have topped Ove as World Champ under GP-  think Ove tended to be the most consistent over a  whole season . I do think however that its unfortunate that its possible to become World Champ under GP without winning a single GP meeting (e.g. Mark Loram). 

Between 1956 and 1963, Ove Fundin was ranked at no. 1 in the world in the Speedway Star rankings every year except 1958, when he was second to Barry Briggs. Peter Craven made second place only once, in 1962, and third three times. Ronnie Moore was second on three occasions. Briggo was second just once but then came into his own 1964-1966 as Fundin began to decline.

It is, of course a field for endless speculation and you can never know what special factors might influence any particular Grand Prix season, e.g. which tracks would have been used during the season, but simply going by historical records and, from 1960 onwards, my own personal observation of the leading contenders, I would say Fundin could well have won the Grand Prix every year from 1956-1963, with Briggo winning 1964-1966. Two caveats - Briggo might have won in 1958 and Bjorn Knutson in 1965. 

Personally, I really couldn't see Peter Craven winning a Grand Prix Season, but wouldn't rule out Ronnie Moore, especially in the 1950s. But then things rarely work out as you expect them to!

 

Edited by norbold
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7 hours ago, Grand Central said:

Just about every World Champion there has ever been will have had a first bend crash at some point in their career, perhaps even in the very year in which they go on to win the title.

Only Jerzy ever gets lampooned for doing so.

Come on mate -are you kidding, no way could he have won under a GP system-ditto Egon. I would rank many Poles worthier and ahead of Jerzy. In no particular order: Waloszek, Woryna , Podlecki, Wygenda, Jancarz, Pogozelski, Plech, Stancl. Any thoughts from anybody??

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1 hour ago, norbold said:

Between 1956 and 1963, Ove Fundin was ranked at no. 1 in the world in the Speedway Star rankings every year except 1958, when he was second to Barry Briggs. Peter Craven made second place only once, in 1962, and third three times. Ronnie Moore was second on three occasions. Briggo was second just once but then came into his own 1964-1966 as Fundin began to decline.

It is, of course a field for endless speculation and you can never know what special factors might influence any particular Grand Prix season, e.g. which tracks would have been used during the season, but simply going by historical records and, from 1960 onwards and my own personal observation of the leading contenders, I would say Fundin could well have won the Grand Prix every year from 1956-1963, with Briggo winning 1964-1966. Two caveats - Briggo might have won in 1958 and Bjorn Knutson in 1965. 

Personally, I really couldn't see Peter Craven winning a Grand Prix Season, but wouldn't rule out Ronnie Moore, especially in the 1950s. But then things rarely work out as you expect them to!

 

Do you reckon Olsen would have ever been Champ under a GP system? I agree with norbold here particularly re Peter Craven.. Think you are being generous to Briggo re 1958 but not sure about Knutson in 1965- but maybe he could have done it in 1964 as well as 1965. As you say Norman it's a field of endless speculation-but isn't that what makes all these threads and comments so fascinating-many great comments from other enthusiasts.

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Another thought- Could Sverre have done it in say 1963??

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2 hours ago, BOBBATH said:

Come on mate -are you kidding, no way could he have won under a GP system-ditto Egon. I would rank many Poles worthier and ahead of Jerzy. In no particular order: Waloszek, Woryna , Podlecki, Wygenda, Jancarz, Pogozelski, Plech, Stancl. Any thoughts from anybody??

I think you're reading WAY too much into the statement, Bob. What Grand Central is saying is that a lot of people remember Szczakiel for a first bend crash at Oxford (rather than for his achievements), but never mock any other riders for their crashes.

 

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6 hours ago, BOBBATH said:

Come on mate -are you kidding, no way could he have won under a GP system-ditto Egon. I would rank many Poles worthier and ahead of Jerzy. In no particular order: Waloszek, Woryna , Podlecki, Wygenda, Jancarz, Pogozelski, Plech, Stancl. Any thoughts from anybody??

The meeting at Cowley between Australia and Poland during 1973 left a great impression on me...the Poles were a relatively unknown mysterious force one only read about. I recall Zenon Plech's 'up and over' crash and was quickly withdrawn from the rest of the meeting as he was highly regarded by the authorities as Poland's great white hope at the forthcoming World Final. Strangely Antoni Woryna was not chosen to ride that afternoon after showing useful form earlier in the season riding for Poole?  Despite the team having many recoconised stars in their line up the rider that came up smelling of roses on that particular afternoon was the little known Jan Mucha who topped scored with eleven I seem to remember. It was also the biggest attendance seen at Cowley for years!

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Great days when the touring sides toured British tracks. I think Brum in the 70s at various times had Olching, young Poland, young Sweden and a Swedish club (maybe) at various times. Brilliant 

 

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22 hours ago, Grand Central said:

Just about every World Champion there has ever been will have had a first bend crash at some point in their career, perhaps even in the very year in which they go on to win the title.

Only Jerzy ever gets lampooned for doing so.

Come on mate -are you kidding, no way could he have won under a GP system-ditto Egon. I would rank many Poles worthier and ahead of Jerzy. In no particular order: Waloszek, Woryna , Podlecki, Wygenda, Jancarz, Pogozelski, Plech, Stancl. Any thoughts from anybody??

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You are right Chunky-my mistake mate.

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8 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Despite the team having many recoconised stars in their line up the rider that came up smelling of roses on that particular afternoon was the little known Jan Mucha who topped scored with eleven I seem to remember.

I think that is a little harsh on Mucha, Steve. While he never reached the heights (or the fame) of some of the other Poles, he had already established himself as one rider who wasn't out of his depth at World level. He was also unusual in the fact that he was quite at home on smaller British tracks.

When you saw him, he already had two World Finals under his belt, with 7 points at Wembley in 1969 (including a defeat of Briggo), 6 points at Chorzow the following year (including a defeat of Olsen), and a top-scoring 6pts for Poland at Wembley in the 1970 WTC Final.

Mucha was one of the steadiest and most consistent (and certainly under-rated) of that that batch of Poles in the late 60's and early 70's.

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I was at the World Long Track final at New Plymouth - New Zealand & went along to Ivan Maugers pre-event presentation at a local hotel. From my understanding of his statements he was not a fan of the GP series & much prefered the one off system.

He said he liked the idea of waking up on new years day with a motor cycle, a licence to race & a dream to be the World Champion at the end of the year & that would not be possible in the GP series.

He also dismissed finals saying that if you score full points in your 5 rides beating all the other racers in the event why should you risk loosing the title in a winner take all final. This statement was to carry a heavy weight as Kelvin Tatum led the championship going into the final, He was leading the final until his bike failed entering the final lap & he was passed by his greatest rival Gerd Riss who went on to win the race & the title while KT hunched over his machine on the infield.

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I've never liked the GP's, but this is probably an age thing. I miss the excitement and drama of a one off world final. Lady luck sometimes played a massive part on the outcome. GP's can never replicate that.

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18 minutes ago, cityrebel said:

I've never liked the GP's, but this is probably an age thing. I miss the excitement and drama of a one off world final. Lady luck sometimes played a massive part on the outcome. GP's can never replicate that.

Should luck decide a World Champion? As a professional sportsman, I know my opinion...

What I think is funny is that everybody hates playoffs in leagues, but the old World Final system was no different. When I look back, it's incredible how flawed and unfair the system was - the WHOLE system. We didn't complain because we didn't think about it. It was all we had, and it was all we knew.

Thing is, our memories are very selective. You and I - and many others on here - knew how wonderful it was to attend a Wembley World Final. I never went to Ullevi for speedway, but I have walked the track, and I can imagine that was a great atmosphere. Not another Wembley, obviously, but fantastic all the same. Except for the rain, of course...

We sit here and supposedly think of what's it's like to be at a World Final. WRONG! What we think of is what it WAS like to be at a World Final. I have been to a number of post-81 World Finals, and while I enjoyed them, NONE came anywhere close to Wembley.

If we had World Finals now, everybody would sit here whining how crappy it is, how piss-poor the racing is, how Poland get preferential treatment when it should be us Brits, how the atmosphere is terrible, that it's b*llocks that so-and-so isn't in the final because of an e/f, how HE won because of luck, etc...

Life moves on. Just because "we always did it that way" doesn't mean it was the right way. Then was then, now is now.

Yes, I "preferred" the World Finals as an attendee, but I fully understand that the GP system is better, and fairer, to the riders. I love the fact that we have a bunch of meetings with virtually ALL the top riders in the world in action. The old system NEVER provided that, and it was never designed to.

What I do agree with Ivan on is that having everything decided the year before takes away something. I can see the Top 8 qualifying from the previous year (that's fine), but I think that we could find a way to complete the field from a series of qualifiers at the start of the current season.

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4 minutes ago, chunky said:

Should luck decide a World Champion? As a professional sportsman, I know my opinion...

What I think is funny is that everybody hates playoffs in leagues, but the old World Final system was no different. When I look back, it's incredible how flawed and unfair the system was - the WHOLE system. We didn't complain because we didn't think about it. It was all we had, and it was all we knew.

Thing is, our memories are very selective. You and I - and many others on here - knew how wonderful it was to attend a Wembley World Final. I never went to Ullevi for speedway, but I have walked the track, and I can imagine that was a great atmosphere. Not another Wembley, obviously, but fantastic all the same. Except for the rain, of course...

We sit here and supposedly think of what's it's like to be at a World Final. WRONG! What we think of is what it WAS like to be at a World Final. I have been to a number of post-81 World Finals, and while I enjoyed them, NONE came anywhere close to Wembley.

If we had World Finals now, everybody would sit here whining how crappy it is, how piss-poor the racing is, how Poland get preferential treatment when it should be us Brits, how the atmosphere is terrible, that it's b*llocks that so-and-so isn't in the final because of an e/f, how HE won because of luck, etc...

Life moves on. Just because "we always did it that way" doesn't mean it was the right way. Then was then, now is now.

Yes, I "preferred" the World Finals as an attendee, but I fully understand that the GP system is better, and fairer, to the riders. I love the fact that we have a bunch of meetings with virtually ALL the top riders in the world in action. The old system NEVER provided that, and it was never designed to.

What I do agree with Ivan on is that having everything decided the year before takes away something. I can see the Top 8 qualifying from the previous year (that's fine), but I think that we could find a way to complete the field from a series of qualifiers at the start of the current season.

Life's all about opinions Steve. I find the GP's boring, but i appreciate a lot of people love them. I really enjoyed attending the British youth championship at Scunthorpe last Sunday, but some fans wouldn't cross the road to watch it.

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1 hour ago, chunky said:

I think that is a little harsh on Mucha, Steve. While he never reached the heights (or the fame) of some of the other Poles, he had already established himself as one rider who wasn't out of his depth at World level. He was also unusual in the fact that he was quite at home on smaller British tracks.

When you saw him, he already had two World Finals under his belt, with 7 points at Wembley in 1969 (including a defeat of Briggo), 6 points at Chorzow the following year (including a defeat of Olsen), and a top-scoring 6pts for Poland at Wembley in the 1970 WTC Final.

Mucha was one of the steadiest and most consistent (and certainly under-rated) of that that batch of Poles in the late 60's and early 70's.

Of course you're right Chunky...I was a bit harsh but it's just that those who were present that glorious afternoon expected the star rider from Poland to have been either Plech, Jancarz or Waloszek but Mucha out-classed them all! Still a mystery why Antoni Woryna wasn't present though?

Edited by steve roberts

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