Gorzow GP`s Round 3 and 4 Friday and Saturday 11th and 12th September

[chunky 6,087]

2 hours ago, bill94d said:

Yes but once a rider is into the semis he doesn't have to try to win races. I'm surprised that Smarzlik and Woffinden went at it the way they did towards the end of the meeting prior to the semis.

Which was EXACTLY the way it used to be in the days of the World Final qualification - particularly when you had 11 riders advancing from the Inter-Continental Final. Or 8 advancing from the British semis. Or...

The fact is, all this negativity - and accusations of riders "not trying to win" is coming from people who I'm sure have never competed in anything. The vast majority of individuals will ALWAYS go out to win and do their best, certainly at the higher levels. It's called "pride".

However, there will ALWAYS be situations where a little common sense and playing it safe will be a better option. That is nothing new, particularly in a dangerous sport like speedway...

[tyler42 150]

9 hours ago, chunky said:

Oh wait, isn't that what used to happen in the good old days of the World Final? Everybody was okay with riders scraping through the qualifying rounds, and then having a couple of good races and ending up as World Champion!

I think you needed a little bit more than a few good races to become World Champion back in the day! From 1949 through to 94, only three world finals were won with a total of less that thirteen. Whereas in thirty five years of those finals they were won with either a full house or fourteen points.

[Ben91 1,743]

2 hours ago, bill94d said:

Yes but once a rider is into the semis he doesn't have to try to win races. I'm surprised that Smarzlik and Woffinden went at it the way they did towards the end of the meeting prior to the semis.

Not true. Because of the importance of gate choices in the semi-finals. Tai wanted as many points as possible and for Zmarzlik to be put into the situation where he has to race it would be more dangerous for him to back off, so the fact that they raced hard doesn’t surprise me at all. 

[chunky 6,087]

1 minute ago, tyler42 said:

I think you needed a little bit more than a few good races to become World Champion back in the day! From 1949 through to 94, only three world finals were won with a total of less that thirteen. Whereas in thirty five years of those finals they were won with either a full house or fourteen points.

Go back and re-read what I said.

My point was that QUALIFYING for World finals (and indeed, all rounds) was no different to the system used in a 2020 GP. A rider could scrape through - and often did - from one round to the next, and it didn't make one iota of difference. Whether you won the I-C Final with a 15-point max, or scraped through in 11th place with 5 points, it didn't matter; you both started the World Final on level points. Which is what happens in a GP.

My point is that Rider A could qualify from the British S-F in 8th, the British Final in 5th, the Commonwealth Final in 9th, the Overseas Final in 8th, and the Inter-Continental Final in 11th. He never looked like winning a race.

Rider B could have won every race in those. Doesn't make the slightest bit of difference though, does it? They start the World Final absolutely level. Rider A could win TWO races, with three seconds. Rider B could win four races, and suffer an E/F. Rider A is World Champ having only won two races all season, and finishes higher than Rider B who only lost one race in the entire season!

It doesn't matter whether it happened or not, what matters is that it could. The fact is this : there WERE riders who scraped into meetings, and then made the most of their good fortune next time out. In fact, there WERE riders who became World Champion only having to win a small handful of races compared to others who worked hard all season and just fell at the final hurdle.

People really don't realise - or want to accept - that the old World Championship system (with the World Final) was the most flawed system we ever had...

[tyler42 150]

1 hour ago, chunky said:

Go back and re-read what I said.

My point was that QUALIFYING for World finals (and indeed, all rounds) was no different to the system used in a 2020 GP. A rider could scrape through - and often did - from one round to the next, and it didn't make one iota of difference. Whether you won the I-C Final with a 15-point max, or scraped through in 11th place with 5 points, it didn't matter; you both started the World Final on level points. Which is what happens in a GP.

My point is that Rider A could qualify from the British S-F in 8th, the British Final in 5th, the Commonwealth Final in 9th, the Overseas Final in 8th, and the Inter-Continental Final in 11th. He never looked like winning a race.

Rider B could have won every race in those. Doesn't make the slightest bit of difference though, does it? They start the World Final absolutely level. Rider A could win TWO races, with three seconds. Rider B could win four races, and suffer an E/F. Rider A is World Champ having only won two races all season, and finishes higher than Rider B who only lost one race in the entire season!

It doesn't matter whether it happened or not, what matters is that it could. The fact is this : there WERE riders who scraped into meetings, and then made the most of their good fortune next time out. In fact, there WERE riders who became World Champion only having to win a small handful of races compared to others who worked hard all season and just fell at the final hurdle.

People really don't realise - or want to accept - that the old World Championship system (with the World Final) was the most flawed system we ever had...

I think you're being slightly disingenuous or I have misread your post. If thats the case. I apologise. You originally said " and then having a couple of good races and ending up as World Champion!" All I did was highlight the fact that this was not the case in the majority of world finals. A couple of good rides would not be good enough to become world champion. 

[tyler42 150]

1 hour ago, chunky said:

People really don't realise - or want to accept - that the old World Championship system (with the World Final) was the most flawed system we ever had.

But. one rider winning one race compared to another winning six races and only a two point difference at the end of the night is not flawed in your opinion? It's beed said the new scoring system was to bring into line with other motor sports but, FI  has one race per GP, Moto GP has two, Superbikes has two. Speedway has 23 races per GP!! How is that in line with the other major motor sports? 

[nw42 2,048]

25 minutes ago, tyler42 said:

I think you're being slightly disingenuous or I have misread your post. If thats the case. I apologise. You originally said " and then having a couple of good races and ending up as World Champion!" All I did was highlight the fact that this was not the case in the majority of world finals. A couple of good rides would not be good enough to become world champion. 

That's how I read it to be fair, that you only needed a couple of good rides on World Final night to secure the championship.

[chunky 6,087]

11 minutes ago, nw42 said:

That's how I read it to be fair, that you only needed a couple of good rides on World Final night to secure the championship.

Again, what you did BEFORE the final meant nothing, even if you didn't drop a point. Some unfancied rider (who was only a low-order qualifier during the rounds) could have a couple of unusually good (or just well-timed) rides during the Final, and end up as World Champ.

That is the same with an individual GP now. How you qualified for the semis isn't important; what matters is just being there. You are all starting from scratch.

I know it seems different now, being done one one night (rather than over the season), but the concept is identical.

[nw42 2,048]

Just now, chunky said:

Again, what you did BEFORE the final meant nothing, even if you didn't drop a point. Some unfancied rider (who was only a low-order qualifier during the rounds) could have a couple of unusually good (or just well-timed) rides during the Final, and end up as World Champ.

That is the same with an individual GP now. How you qualified for the semis isn't important; what matters is just being there. You are all starting from scratch.

I know it seems different now, being done one one night (rather than over the season), but the concept is identical.

Thanks but I already realise that, I was only saying, in agreement with Tyler, that you appeared to be saying that "a couple of decent rides" on final night could secure the title. If that is what you're saying then you're wrong, as Tyler showed, the championship was invariably won with plenty of points, 4 good rides at least, not a couple.

[chunky 6,087]

34 minutes ago, tyler42 said:

But. one rider winning one race compared to another winning six races and only a two point difference at the end of the night is not flawed in your opinion? It's beed said the new scoring system was to bring into line with other motor sports but, FI  has one race per GP, Moto GP has two, Superbikes has two. Speedway has 23 races per GP!! How is that in line with the other major motor sports? 

See, you only read what you want to; I have NEVER said it's not flawed. In fact, not only did I state that "most of us" didn't like it, I have also stated elsewhere that I personally am not a fan. However, it is the same system as used in a lot of other sports with the 20 heats now being used as simple qualifiers. The only difference is that speedway does it all in one night.

I used the World Cup as an example. Germany could qualify for the World Cup finals with a 100% record in their group. England could lose a few games, and then beat someone in a play-off to join them. None of that matters now - England and Germany are both in the finals, and start with the same number of points (zero). Then we have the group matches at the Finals. Same thing; Germany win their group with 100% record, England drop points, but join Germany in the knockout rounds. Again, both start with the same number of points (zero).

Exactly the same.

The trouble is that with speedway, we love to look back on the way it used to be. Personally, I thought the system we had last year was fine (of course, the GP winner could still earn fewer points than the guys who didn't win - which is a flaw).

[chunky 6,087]

11 minutes ago, nw42 said:

Thanks but I already realise that, I was only saying, in agreement with Tyler, that you appeared to be saying that "a couple of decent rides" on final night could secure the title. If that is what you're saying then you're wrong, as Tyler showed, the championship was invariably won with plenty of points, 4 good rides at least, not a couple.

I am not "wrong", and I am taking Szczakiel's win as a prime example. He wasn't the best rider on show. He didn't have to work hard to qualify for the final. He had a couple of second places, and a win - which wouldn't have been totally unexpected. Throw in a couple of other wins (GOOD rides) - against quality opposition - that wouldn't have been expected, and there he has 13 points. Forget the run-off (it was handed to him), and two GOOD rides clinched him the World Championship.

[nw42 2,048]

1 minute ago, chunky said:

I am not "wrong", and I am taking Szczakiel's win as a prime example. He wasn't the best rider on show. He didn't have to work hard to qualify for the final. He had a couple of second places, and a win - which wouldn't have been totally unexpected. Throw in a couple of other wins (GOOD rides) - against quality opposition - that wouldn't have been expected, and there he has 13 points. Forget the run-off (it was handed to him), and two GOOD rides clinched him the World Championship.

Ok.

[Steve Shovlar 10,439]

18 hours ago, KeirStarmerFan said:

Why doesn't Emil ride in the SGPs like he does for Leszno in the league?

Very disappointing again!  

He is top of the Polish league averages yet he's ridden like a novice in the first three rounds.

 

He’s just not good enough. Like Leigh Adams. Good team rider but average on the world stage.

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Steve Shovlar

[nw42 2,048]

1 minute ago, Steve Shovlar said:

He’s just not good enough. Like Leigh Adams. Good team rider but average on the world stage.

what BT Channel is this on/ can’t see it on my programer.

2

[Steve Shovlar 10,439]

It just updated but thanks.